How Might We...?
Supporting purpose-led leaders make a bigger impact Having outcome focused chats with guests from different areas, exploring how might we questions. Discussing the issues and potential ways to overcome them. Supporting leaders in all businesses make a bigger positive impact.
Episodes
Friday Feb 25, 2022
How Might We Go Back To The Future With Leadership
Friday Feb 25, 2022
Friday Feb 25, 2022
TRUST is the genesis of economic prosperity.
A lively debate today with Oakland McCulloch, Douglas Lines and Geoff Hudson-Searle, discussing the role of leadership in creating trust.
Douglas Lines: Douglas is a senior business leader, executive committee member with substantial global commercial experience, operating principally in financial services.
Geoffrey M.J Hudson-Searle: Geoff is a serial business advisor, CSuite Executive and Non-Executive Director to Private and Publicly listed growth-phase tech companies. An author of 5 books including the best seller Purposeful Discussions and rated by Agilience as a Top 250 Harvard Business School authority covering; ‘Strategic Management’ and ‘Management Consulting’
Oakland McCulloch: Oak is aRetired Lieutenant Colonel Oakland McCulloch is the author of the 2021 release, Your Leadership Legacy: Becoming the Leader You Were Meant to Be. Based on 40+ years of leadership in the U.S. Army and subsequent civilian positions, Oak highlights principles that will benefit today’s leaders and inspire the leaders of tomorrow. Oak is also well-known speaker who gives presentations on a variety of topics including leadership, success, military history, college preparation and others.
Trust directly influences the actions and outcomes of business every day. By embedding trust in a company’s business, leaders generate value for their stakeholders and society more broadly now and in the future. Trust between employer and employee and among employees enhances human capital investment. Trust influences the behaviours of both employers and employees. Deloitte research suggests that employees who highly trust their employer are about half as likely to seek new job opportunities as those who don’t. At the same time, workers are more likely to invest in their own skill building if they trust that their employer will reward them for their efforts. This is especially true regarding non-transferable or firm-specific skills, which suggests that trust can raise the level of institutional knowledge that can lead to more productive work.
Geoff and Douglas: https://ib-em.com/
Oakland: https://www.ltcoakmcculloch.com
Scott: https://theinnovatecrowd.com
Blog site, books, news and resources: https://freedomafterthesharks.com/
Transcript
Scott: [00:00:00]
Hello, and welcome to the latest edition of how might we, and I've got a first, I have three guests with me this time. So it'll be interesting how this pans out the title for this podcast is how might we go back to the future with leadership? So with me today is Oakland McCulloch, Jeff Hudson, cell, and Douglas lines.
So gentlemen, in no particular order who would like to go first and introduce themselves to the lovely listeners?
Oakland: Well, I'm a retired Lieutenant Colonel McCall on. Yeah, over here in America. So across the pond there, as you guys would say did 23 years in the army retired, a Lieutenant Colonel had got about 40 years of leadership experience one way or another.
And recently wrote a book your leadership legacy becoming the leader you were meant to be. And and I'm out on the speaking and speaking tours doing some [00:01:00] speaking, but but excited to be here with, with all three of you and looking forward to talking about.
Scott: Okay. Lovely. Thank you very much.
And I will go international then. So Douglas, you want to go next is our next,
Douglas: thank you. Scott says you can hear my accent clearly, south African living in the UK educated in the us. And actually I have a German driver's license. I think that confuses most, really great to be here with you guys today, a conversation and a topic that I'm enormously passionate about.
Equally like Oak. I have in excess of 20 years experience leading businesses and teams have learned to the good, the bad and the ugly along the way. But I really believe that with great leadership there's great opportunities for, for the world that we live in and certainly going forward. And it's that positivity that each and every one of us can bring in our lives not only in professional, you know, corporate life, but equally in our personal lives in our community.
So really looking forward to the conversation, Scott.
Scott: Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. And Geoff,
Geoff: .Thank you, Scott. It's a pleasure to be here. And I [00:02:00] also a great pleasure to be here with both Douglas and Oak I'm really looking forward to this conversation. My name is Geoff Hudson Searle.
I'm a 30 year executive serial business advisor for growth phase companies. C-suite executive private and publicly listed companies both CEO, CMO and CCO. I've been at NXD for the last 13 years, mainly on around regulation technology and internet security. And I'm an author and thought leader of my sixth book, which will be out 2022, which is called the trust paradigm.
And. As I said before I do have a little bit of an explainer, everything that's, I will be discussing today with, with both Oak and Douglas, I must make clear that these are my personal preferences and they are not of the preferences of any of the companies that I represent.
Scott: Okay.
Thank you very much. See, I only represent my one company, so I never have to put that disclaimer in, this is me. [00:03:00] It's just the way it is. It makes life so much more simple, so much more simple. Okay guys. So we, we had a chat before we came on, live on air I'm one of the, we were talking about the time it was and we said, we go back to the future back to back to the future for leadership.
So, oh, go to you. Why do you think, well, what was it about that title that you liked and sort of what it was suggesting?
Oakland: Yeah. So I think that we have gotten away from producing leaders who. Understand what their job is, and it's not about them. I think we've got to get back to producing servant leaders who, who understand that it's about the organization.
It's about the people who work for that organization. And if they put the focus on that, then the organization will, will do well and they'll get their benefits in the end anyway. But if, if you're becoming leaders and I think at least here in America, we are producing leaders at all levels. In all professions, politicians, businessmen, military, we're [00:04:00] producing leaders who have forgotten why they are leaders.
And it's not about their title. It's not about the power that they get. It's not about the money they make. If that's why you're picking to be a leader, then go do something else because you're going to be a horrible leader. As we see in the world right now, if you want to be a good leader, you gotta, we gotta get back to if we want things to get better in this.
We got to get back to producing leaders who understand that it's not about them. It's about the organization and the people.
Scott: Okay. Lovely. Thank you. Listen, would you like to come in on that, but yeah, I think
Douglas: first of all, I, you know, I'm a firm believer that we live in a, an environment of contextual change that's happening at a rate that we cannot even begin to imagine.
And so this matter of contextual leadership is really profound for me. And I think coupled with that is I do not believe that the past is necessarily the proxy of the future of leadership. I think there's aspects where we want to take the best from the past. But be enormously curious about the future and, and I challenge leaders in every society and [00:05:00] every level of our organization to really continue their journey of personal reimagination, because I don't think leadership is static anymore.
And, and coupled with an enormous amount of curiosity about the world that we live in. And so, yeah, enormously passionate in terms of, of, of going from that past world and the great learnings that are exploded, use those, don't lose them, but bring new ones that compliment and enhance this ever-changing context we operating.
Scott: So don't, don't throw the bath board out with the baby type thing. So let's learn from the past and that's okay. But when we learnt leaders in the past, it was principles, but application was going to change because the world is changing at a pace. We never, I love the curiosity aspect, but I do think that we under under milk or under rag, really the value of curiosity.
In what we do, because I think curiosity is the path to finding new ways of working, working out. What's working, what's not working doing this, [00:06:00] but I think curiosity with care. Absolutely. Yeah. So it's not about challenging, Jeff, would you like to come in on anything
Geoff: that was mentioned? Yeah, look, I, I can't disagree.
You know with my colleagues whatsoever. I think we do need to get back into back to the future and more importantly, the time machine on a few issues. I'd like to, I'd like to talk about some of those issues. You know, we talked about principles, we've talked about, you know, accountability.
I mean, if we go back in history, you know leadership was more passionate 20 years ago. Right. You know, you got to see at the top of the tree with his people or. And you have a lot more passion. You have a lot more care. You, you had value of valued system okay. In your organization, which, which we were not seeing too much today.
And as a Douglas quite touched on, you know, we're, we're at another rating change of pace changes, constant. This is not. Cycle or an event that we're just describing right now, this is constant, right. And that's [00:07:00] changing people's human behaviors, but unless we get back to some basic principles around leadership and then you can get, you can actually get hold of any major.
Key piece of research, whether it's Duke's universe, duke university, whether it's PWC, whether it's McKinsey, I'll tell you that we are failing in leadership. Okay. We're failing because we've got an there, there are many factors that go around that. I mean, most of the discussion points that we're hearing right now is the CEO can't do it on his or her own that we need multiple CEOs in an organization to actually affect true change that can actually be applied to a business that can actually drive growth and performance.
Number one. And number two is, you know, you to them. Debbie W's talked a little bit. I care. Well, I'm a great believer that, I mean, we've got to start listening more. We've got to have, we've got to be more empathetic. We've got to start understanding more. But we're not seeing that we did have that 20.
We had that in leadership 20 years [00:08:00] ago, because that was the mantra. The mantra is, you know, you work for a company and you're not leaving after 12 months. You not leaving after because of the great resign you're you are a part of this organization and you're going to work with this organization and you've got to get promoted.
And eventually you've got to get your gold watch after so many years and you'll retire and have a nice life. Now you're lucky if you have three years in a G and a C suite executive within an organization, and then suddenly you've got changing, I've seen it in some of the large groupers where they're changing divisional leadership every nine months.
Well, how do you expect. Executional change and performance and, and work on things like KPIs and actually deliver growth. If you've got a constant change in leadership and then with it, a constant change in people. So I think there is an awful lot here that we needed to unpack. But I think fundamentally there are some major flaws over, over human behavior.
[00:09:00] Yeah. My human behavior in leadership as well, and, and leadership's ability to actually be accountable and actually execute.
Scott: Okay. So accountability and execution. Cause a lot of times you see all the stuff is easy in the news now is every time you sit, we'll pick up Lucas, I pick up a newspaper who does that or see the newspaper online.
Whatever we do now is about this. This happens, this has happened. This is an apology from this company for this and apology from a company for that behavior and things that they've done, they just seem to be constantly coming. And some of the defense is that senior management teams. So I didn't know, I didn't know this was happening.
It might be. There is that side.
Geoff: But
the other side that I touched on was passion, where is the passion that we had, you know, in entrepreneurs, you know, you see passion because, you know, they will live and breathe their business. Incorporate the very few people that I can think of where I can see. I see sheer tenacity, sheer determination, sheer passion, passion, or [00:10:00] just for the business passion for that people.
Gotcha.
Oakland: Yeah. I would agree with you, Geoff but I want to go back to one of the things Scott just said about responsibility. I mean, we ha we have gotten to a point where people at all levels are saying not my responsibility, really, as a leader, at least as what I've learned as a leader, I can give away all the authority.
I. I can give you all the authority to do whatever you want, all the resources to do it, but in the end, whether it fails or, or is successful is on me. My name's still on the blame line. If I'm a leader and we have gotten to the point now where nobody is willing to take responsibility, it's all about, it's not my responsibility because we're all, they're all so worried about getting to their next level, getting their next promotion, getting their next paycheck, pay, raise that they're there.
They're afraid to take responsibility for [00:11:00] things that don't go well, but that's what leaders do. Leaders are supposed to take the responsibility, whether your unit, your organization, your company, your whatever you're leading does well or not. You okay. Good bad or ugly if you're the leader and we got to get back to people doing it.
And I, you know, and I, I grew up in the army mostly and as a leader and I had a boss who retired a four-star general, who said to me one day when he was a Colonel and I was a captain and he said, Oak, if you didn't make a mistake today, you probably didn't do anything. And he said, I don't care if you made a mistake, is it nobody in the world is perfect.
I keep trying to convince my wife that I'm perfect, but she's not buying it, but nobody in the world is perfect. And it's what he said. He said, I don't care if you made a mistake. What I care about is what did you do after you made the mistake? Did you try to hide it? Did you blame somebody else? Or did you walk into my office and say, Hey boss, I messed up.
Here's how we're going to fix it. And if you do that, then, [00:12:00] okay, let's go fix it. I mean, we've got to get back to that kind of mentality.
Douglas: I think you know, Scott and I can do, if one of the things that I'm very passionate about. Is diversity within leadership and leadership teams. And what do I mean by that?
Well, when you look at a lot of C-suite appointments, especially big corporations, they tend to recruit leaders from the same industry from competitors. And I think, you know, McKinsey did a survey about a year ago and said, well, out of all the, the C-suites, they interviewed 86% of them. I felt that that did not have the right mixture of leaders on their team.
And so I keep questioning this, this, this, and I'll call it dominant industry logic that says, you know what, I'm in the motor manufacturing industry. I need to get a motor manufacturing executive. And I want to challenge that because I fundamentally believe. That's the ability to cross pollinate from different industries with different skill sets you know, has got such richness in it.
I'll give you a real example. I've [00:13:00] been in financial services and the senior banking executive for many years, some of my best leaders had spent time in the military. And why was it? Because they had incredible discipline, incredible focus. And that was as a banker to have that skillset is incredible. So for me, you know, I'm really passionate about saying, how do we change the world we live in?
Because not only does it bring a different perspective, we need us come from different industries or, or experiences, but it brings about something in terms of innovation. And I think when I look at most companies around the world, you know, I think most of them are running you know, run the business or grow the business are the ones that are really transforming the business.
And I was reading an article today about the base decision that Steve jobs ever made an app. The best decision Steve jobs made was he actually said, I'm going to kill the RPOD. I'm not going to kill it because I'm going to launch the iPhone. And he had a great business model. He was doing fantastically well with apple, but the orphan took them [00:14:00] into a different stratosphere in terms of the global expansion.
So you've got to as leaders and with that diverse thinking, be able to disrupt yourself and to disrupt yourself. Sometimes you have to see the world differently. And so bringing, and, and Jeff, you mentioned Rob beginning, bringing skillsets from very different varnish points, creates something unique in chemistry.
And we don't see that often enough, whether it is in corporate laugh, whether it is in a small, medium sized businesses, whether it's in, I'm sure in the military or government departments. And that's something we should be looking at dynamically going forward to change.
Geoff: So I, I, I concur completely with what you said.
I think to me, if you start looking at the word accountability, Responsibility, right. I'm afraid I have to come back to the word trust because if you're not a responsible leader and if you're a leader without accountability, how do you expect to lead others? And more importantly, how [00:15:00] do you expect people follow you?
Look, you know, if you start looking at trust and you start looking at leadership trust, right? You know, you're talking about everything that really evolves around incremental value, accelerated growth, enhanced innovation, improved collaboration, you know, stronger partnering course, better execution across everything you're doing.
But most importantly, heightened loyalty. How do you expect to lead a lead a business if you don't have
Scott: trust?
Oakland: Trust is so huge. And I think, you know, that's, that goes back to the culture and it, you know, I had this discussion the other day with, with a young Young ROTC cadet. Cause in my day job, I'd recruit for army ROTC here in the United States produced the next level of officers.
And I, and I had this conversation with him and I was, we were talking about this very subject and I said you to build that the two things that a leader is most responsible for, at least in my opinion, having a vision where you [00:16:00] want this organization to be a year from now five years from now, 10 years from now, even if you're not going to be around and number two, building the culture of the organization and culture, although it will happen.
If you don't do anything, that's not the culture you generally want. If you want the culture that you want, you're going to have to invest some time, energy, money training to get there. And I think that goes along with what Jeff is saying. If you don't have the right culture where it, and again, part of that is being a servant leader.
If you're a servant leader with the right call. Your people are going to trust you because you're doing the right things. You're taking care of them. You've put their, their wishes and needs and desires ahead of your own. And if you do that, I can just tell you, and in my experience, being in the army, if you do show people that they can trust you and that you've got their best interest, they'll do anything you ask them to do and including charge them machine [00:17:00] gun nest, if that's what you want them to do.
Yeah.
Douglas: Okay. I think you're right. And you know, just when, what was coming to mind when you were talking, there was something that I've, you know, really indoctrinated over many years as a leader, that's vision led and values driven, and part of that, and part of that is trust and embedded in that culture.
It's about lighting the fire and people's hearts, not under their butts. And, and to me, that's something we are, you know, whether you're a leader in a, in a, in a local community or an organization, doesn't really matter. It's the same skill set that you do. And it's amazing when you see it in people's eyes.
When you locked up the heart in terms of that inspiration and in our ma my alumni university in the USG university spoke of this combination of RQ Q and DQ, and we know what RQ and EEQ are, but DQ is decency quotient. And so as leaders that, and Jeff mentioned earlier, this empathy of deeply listening.
But inspiring to do [00:18:00] that, but, but I think without doubt, we all agree that trust is the foundation. I do recall many, a years ago, there was a, a wonderful video clip on YouTube with the light Colin Powell who stood up and spoke about leadership. And the one thing he kept on reemphasizing, and I'll never forget, this was building the trust with the troops.
And without that trust, you cannot lead and any, and you could see that it wasn't a, it wasn't lip service. He actually, I'm sure you would know this. He was, he was in, he was on the front lines with us troops on many occasions. I'm sure, but also the ability to demonstrate as a leader, that there are times when you need to be in the front line with the team.
But if something goes horribly wrong, that you're the one that takes the full accountability. When things go right, you give them the credit. And so there's times as a leader, what you need to be on the field, but, you know, and then pivot back to the top of the hill to, to see the landscape and knowing your, when your people see.
And I will follow you as you rock. He said, oh, they'll follow you wherever you go. [00:19:00] And you,
Geoff: I think you said some very key points that Douglas in, in particular around empathy there's a very good book called creative confidence in inspired Solomon David Kelly who were the founders of IDEO. And they won awards for this book.
And what it really talks about is having reason why it's called creative confidence is because leadership allowing the people to actually be creative, be innovative. I don't really want to talk about COVID 19, but I will talk about it as an event. One of the biggest, most damaging things that we had in business globally and internationally during this event was the fact that people were isolated.
People were lonely. People were suffering from mental. They didn't. So you talk about, you know, the McKinsey 86% issue. I, we IBM did, did did a trust report back in [00:20:00] 2000 and and 20, and we use data pad to do some really interesting work. That report shows that 69% of all people surveyed within the report, didn't trust their line manager and didn't actually trust their CEO.
And that was before the event to think about all of the lack of creativity and lack of innovation before the event took place. I want to just briefly quote you something from the book, which is on page 19, which I really love, and it talks about empathy. Empathy means challenging your preconceived ideas and setting aside your sense of what you think is true in order to learn what actually is true to me, that resident that is always that particular quote from that particular book has always resonated with me.
Run [00:21:00] always resonates because we've got to start getting back to the, what I said earlier, listening, empathy, understanding you could question about how leadership actually has communicated with their people are more they should be doing in order to communicate with the people, because all of that falls immediately into one of the largest single most biggest problems in the world today.
And that's trust.
Scott: I want to go back to what Douglas said, if you don't mind. And I think what's, and it comes back to what you said there too, about the empathy in that, and it is about, and it goes back to what I said as well about servant leadership. I think one of the keys about leadership is to be selfless.
That's one of the key traits that you can do. So in the trust model, I've developed a lot of research around trust from various different people in my experiences from my time in the prison service is if, if you are people always look at motives. [00:22:00] So if you want, if you are motivated by your personal gain, over asking people to do something to chances of them actually wanting to do for you is minimal.
If they can see that you're motivated by the greater good, whatever that might be, then that's going to help people follow that because they say, yeah, it might be a bad decision, but there's no ulterior motive. There's no hidden agenda here. They're not doing it just to get something for themselves. So I think that selflessness is important.
And what you said, Geoff about the communication and one of the key things in the coach program, I've got. Just an activity and it's called me, myself and I. How many conversations do you have or emails do you receive where the word I permeates the conversation? Yeah. What that is demonstrating that this person is talking, is looking at seeing things and asking from a personal perspective.
So I would like you to do this and we're supposed to be doing it for you instead of saying to somebody, okay, what do you want to achieve? How can we support you? Getting there? What skills do we, can we help you develop out of what we've got? What could I delegate to you? [00:23:00]That's going to help you, rather than the we're a bit busy.
I've got this job. I would like you to do that, that whole conversation piece in how we actually approach and communicate says to somebody I'm trying to do it to help you, or I'm doing it to help me. I think if we really look, so the emails, you get the, in the email conversations and read it. How many times are you asking people to do something, to help you?
And it goes totally against that. Self-sense so it becomes, it becomes self focused rather than other focus, I think is one of the. That and emotions, the emotional connection, I think are the two biggest drivers for trust. And we concentrate on the other ones, which is our capabilities, our credibility, and our believe ability, because they're easy.
You can put your things up on the wall. You can go to university, you can get your degrees, you can do this and do that. And it comes back to what you were saying Douglas about. I can work for you because I've demonstrated I can, I've done this in an industry similar to yours, so I can slip in and do that.
And it's just going to be easy. So there's this, I think in some ways, those decisions are driven by fear, [00:24:00] fear of not taking the recipe. You've got Edward de bono who's sadly passed away a couple of years ago. He went to, he, he went to a conversation in, I think it was involved in a conference with someone like shell and he asked a question like a beginner increase productivity in their Wells.
And I think there's something like 300% by just asking. Because he didn't work in the industry. So he was curious, I said, why'd you do that? Can we do it this way? And somebody says, never thought of that. Hang on a minute. Yes, we can. Let's let's try it. Let's experiment it 300. I think it was some of that 300% increase in productivity per well, from that, be willing to ask questions like a beginner.
Oakland: I absolutely agree. And I always emphasized that leadership is leadership. It doesn't matter where you learn. It doesn't matter where you practice it. If you're a leader, you can lead any organization. Now there's a learning curve. I got it. You got to learn some things, whatever. But, but as [00:25:00] Douglas says, I I'm a firm believer that you can take people from outside and bring them in.
And not only are you now using their unique experience and knowledge, but they're looking at it from the. Different set up through a set of eyes that, that don't know exactly what should be happening. So they, like you're saying Scott, they, they, they can ask those simple questions because they don't know.
And you know, one of the things that I'm, I believe in as a leader that I always do is when I first take over an organization, I just go out and start walking around, talking to people and start asking those questions. So what, what is it you do? Why do you do it that way? Have we always done it that way?
Or is there a better way that you can think of that we can do it. It might make your job easier. If you start asking those questions, you get a couple of things happen. Number one, the people in your organization say, Hey, the boss came down and actually asked me some questions. He may actually care about what I think about.
[00:26:00] Number two, they start feeling like they're a valued member of the organization. And number three is that you might hit that, like you're saying, Scott, you might hit that one question that then changes the way we do everything in that organization, because there may be a better way to do it because the problem that we have in our organizations is the same problem we have in us.
As people organizations have a mental, have a mental memory, just like people do. And we do things because we've always done them that way. I hate that term. If anybody ever tells me, when I ask them, why do you do it that way? And they tell me, because that's the way we've always done them, done it. I just want to reach out and just choke them.
What a horrible. Tell me the desk, the way we've always done it because it works or that we've tried other things, and this is the best way we've come up with. I got that, but just telling me that that's the way we've always done it. Don't waste my time that I don't want to hear that that's just being lazy because that's the way we've always done it.
So if you bring in new eyes, [00:27:00] new people, not afraid to take chances to take a risk. You know, as Rommel said, you know, who's one of my heroes feel Marshall Rommel. You said, you got to know the difference between a risk and a gamble, a risk you can recover from, if it doesn't work, your gamble, you're done. So, you know, you got to know that difference, but if we got to take, be willing to take those risks so that we can bring in that fresh blood, those fresh eyes, ask those good questions.
Like Scott said, if we do that, then along with building the trust and the culture and taking care of people, then I think, you know, we're we're, we are doing the right things at that point. And the sky is the limit of what we can.
Geoff: I think there's another point here and at the beginning, Douglas talks about the pace of change.
And as I said, I think change is constant now, you know, it's, it's, it's kind of, which also then stays the leadership needs a reinvention. Okay. And one of the things [00:28:00] that, that command and control that we used to have in leadership is over those days are over there longer. And I think that culture, which Oak talks about is incredibly important because when we start talking about culture, we've got to start thinking inclusion that the little guy or the little girl at the back of the room may have a voice, may have some incredibly important side.
We need to, we need to listen. We need to empower them. We need to bring them in because they need to be included. And the, the, one of the big problems with great resign is because nobody wants to. Even think about inclusion. It's back to that. I skull that you said earlier, me, myself scenario. No, it's got to be about we us on that journey on that path.
And culture is an important part of all organizational matters today. And particularly with leadership, [00:29:00] there's more importantly that you practice. This is not something that's reserved for the C drive and for the shelf, it's got to be a living, breathing subject matter that people in any of the effects behavior, because it's all about, you know, it's all about let's say personality trait, but it's all about, I mean, trust is is an output of behavior is how we behave.
We are now talking about ethics and we're talking about morals. I've never stopped talking about ethics and morals within corporations within corporate. Right. You know, why are we now starting to talk about it now? You know, is it because, you know, antitrust laws, are they, have they just been made policy in 2022?
No, they'd been around forever, but the fact is culture by main boards, boards of directors from the top down and the bottom up have got to be exercised. The only way to do that is that they're living and breathing with the organization. We start [00:30:00] looking at businesses that have adopted culture in a number one, and I have got a, a very strong emphasis on within your organization, how you behave.
So the people they hire, the sort of people that, that are on a, on a trajectory for growth and change and development, all of the sort of people that have got a future. They're not interested in the current resign because there's purpose. They get out of bed in the morning. It's not just for a paycheck.
As I indicated to this is, this is about, you know, I'm a part of something. I will be a part of greatness. I'm being part of something here today. I'm passionate about what I do. I love what I do. And more importantly, who I work with now, now, now that needs to be considered. And I think, you know, like I said, leadership I said earlier, leadership is becoming impossible for some and, and [00:31:00]Douglas, you, you quoted those statistics.
They're not wrong. They're right. In every way, shape and form leadership needs to be reinvented. Raving vented authority needs to be reinvented. Otherwise corporations are going to come to a very expensive and.
Douglas: Jeff, I think, as you were talking there, I mean, it came to mind and, you know, I think all of us in our journey so far in life, we we've come across good leaders, great leaders per leaders.
And I've always seen a common trait in a great leader is having the combination of intelligence, but wisdom. And what does that mean? So intelligence means maybe asking 10 smart questions. Wisdom goes up a couple of notches because wisdom is asking one deeply refined question and coming back it's about two to the, the, the, the importance of asking a really deeply refined question.
To, to get to that [00:32:00] level of thinking of deep wisdom is, and listening and empathy different. You mentioned about it's this philosophy. I really believe in called contextual leadership and within contextual leadership as the war that's going on around us. But within that is I find that great leaders have supported self-awareness they appreciate the impact that I have on others and how they can influence others in a positive way.
And so that's something for me that's is, is, is, is a real journey of which I'm curious on around always improving one's understanding and the curiosity of the world around us and what's happening around us, but equally knowing where we are, am taking myself out of that situation, see it for what it is and the ability to go back into that complex world that's changing and to lead in that complex world in a manner in which.
Values-driven and envision lead. And so I think this combination of, [00:33:00] of deep wisdom with self-awareness and of course the trust, the harm, moral fiber, et cetera, et cetera, you know, becoming the bedrock. Of of where we're going to just, you know, something quirky that you were talking about, Dave Kelly, and now I love his YouTube video and Dr.
Doug Dietz on that, if anybody wants to ever see it, it's creative confidence, just go to YouTube. But, but it's actually been proven that as we grow in life is that children at the youngest age are the most curious and the most. And our education and conformal Lifelight, we start to embark on, as we go through schooling and university takes away their creative confidence that they've Kelly speaks of.
And so it's, somehow you've got to get that territory back to you think back a five-year old and be curious back a five-year-old and ask her a really ridiculous question that nobody's asking. Because I can tell you that Elon Musk does it, you know, Steve jobs in his heyday did it, these great innovators and [00:34:00] leaders, you know, did it in their, in their day.
They had other quirks as well, but that's something I think that is also all of us to, to appreciate in ourselves. What does it mean to you to, to oneself?
Scott: Can I put a couple of points there, one other, what does this several one is I think one of the greatest unlocked things that we have in an organization is the collective genius of the people who work there.
Absolutely. That is about how do we unlock that? And now I come from, I love appreciative. And I think that's definitely a model of helping unlock that because it's, it's curiosity and inquiry, but we're working on strengths. What are we good at? What's valuable. How can we contribute? And so those types of things, again, is asking questions that are generative, not negative in the concept of that.
They're designed to create generative thinking and generate solutions and go back. We said about that genius. There was a, I can't remember the name of the guy who was a, he was asked, I think by NASA to create a test in the sixties, fifties and sixties for them too, because they were solving problems. We didn't even know [00:35:00] they had, when they jumped, put a man on the moon.
So I don't know what you're going to try and solve yet. Cause we didn't have it. We'd done it, what problems we're going to come across, but we need people who can solve problems. We don't even know we've got. And that goes back to that, having that creative thinking and he did this test and they used it and it was very successful in selecting the right type of people when he said it's really simple.
So we did the test and he did a longevity study. Five-year-olds 98% of five-year-olds passed a creative genius. Well at the time these same people got to, I think it was like, you never quite remember the figures here to be exact, but they got to about 17 or 14 and the percentage had gone down to about 17%.
And then he gave it to a group of adults, average age, about 31 creative genius. The people who pass at creative genius level was 2%. And I think it goes back to what you say, Douglas and what you're saying about that, that, that learned memory in the lone way of doing stuff. And we have people from the same industry because it creates, it creates same type of thinking, which doesn't that.
And we all are creative. [00:36:00] Everyone. I think we have a very narrow definition of creativity is what we think greater is about arts and science and music. And that that's a part of creative. That's expressing yourself through music, but we are all creative because if you can imagine, you can create and we can.
Oakland: I would agree, Scott and, and I, you know, I had a, I had a boss who retired a four-star general, who so obviously way smarter than I am. But he, he used to tell me, and it goes, goes into getting the ideas out of the people that like, like just said, you know, we're not using the entire organization's experience, their knowledge, their creativity.
And he always used to tell me, oh, a good idea is a good idea. Whether it comes from a private, the lowest ranking person in your organization or a general. And then he'd say by the way, A bad idea is a bad idea. Whether it comes from a private or a general, the highest ranking person in the organization.
And so what he was trying to tell me was use everybody in your organization when you have a [00:37:00] chance. And so, you know, one of the things that I I'm adamant about when I'm in charge of an organization, if I have time, if I got an issue, I've got an idea, I've got something that I'm trying to figure out or come up with a better way to do things.
I call all my junior leaders together. And if I have time in the ability, I'll call my entire organization. If it's small enough and I'll say, okay, here's what I'm trying to do. Here's what we're trying to do. Here's the problem. We, as an organization have throw me some ideas of how we can fix this, how we can do it better, how we can change it.
And then, you know, one of the things that I've figured out over the years of doing that is that I'll take a little bit of this person's idea and maybe a little bit of that person's idea and a little bit of that one. And then I'll throw some of my stuff in. And we actually come up with a good solution.
And the key to that is that when we do that, it's no longer Colonel McCullough solution [00:38:00]or just solution or Douglas as solution. It's our solution. We all got skin in the game. Now we all can't help came up with this solution. So let's work really hard to make it work. And I've, I've found that over the years, that's the best.
That's always worked best for me when when I was in a leadership position to, to dig into that experience and that knowledge of everybody in the organization, rather than just use my experience in my knowledge.
Douglas: It's quite interesting. Cause as you were talking there I was connecting the dots in my mind about what you was, you were speaking of it in that innovation example and design thinking.
And again, you know, Dave, Katie is the king of design thinking and, and, and, and one. Now that you have empathy, which is the beginning stages of design thinking is empathy mapping, getting everybody's views and perspectives into the room, and then align a creative environment and using post-its and LIGO, who knows what else to solve a solution [00:39:00] together.
And it's actually in a way it's got to start going back to being a five-year-old. I've actually be part of an innovation session where at the end of the day we, we, we actually use Lego to, to present it back to the group. You know, what is it that we propose as a new business model in this industry?
And our saw executives are 40, 50 years old. You hadn't touched Lego in 30 years, you know, couldn't stop with it at the end of the day. And it's sometimes you've just got to break free of the stigmas and what's it what everybody has to be seen to be look like as leaders we can, you know, it's important to show your vulnerability as a leader and, and again, you know, that whole philosophy.
The sum of the whole is greater than the sum of the digits, you know is, is always so powerful and, and you hit it, you hit it, you hit the nail on the head with that analogy.
Geoff: I, I like that. What you've just said diverse. And then that reminds me when I went to idea's office and playing around with the Lego bricks.
Right. And, but I think when you start talking about [00:40:00] creative creativity and in particular Dave Kelly's and Tom Kelly's book around creative confidence, which when I read it back in, in state really inspired me. I think we have got a problem. I think the problem is not on the creativity side.
It's actually on the confidence side. And I think that the cost of confidence, right, is the big. And in the last two years, 24 months, I say that that cost has gone up even further because the erosion of confidence makes trust way more important, right?
Scott: In the, in the whole, whole scheme of things.
Geoff: We need to necessity trust and the trust multiply, which, which I've always spoken about.
And the action to be more effective is about rebuilding trust, right.
You know, the, the
whole the whole nine yards. And, and if we don't the cost becomes even greater. So from where I'm standing, you know, I'm talking about [00:41:00] that person Oak in the room at the back of the room who never gets noticed, it's putting his hand up and just that, not, not, not even to have the ability to be able to ask a question to senior leaders, Right.
It has to go through several tears and the men they're never heard. Right. You understand, or, or the ability where you're working remotely. And there was a lack of creativity, but they're sitting behind a screen. So again, but even, even middle tier management, they don't want to speak out because they're not confident enough that they're going to be heard or understood.
And then by the time it gets all of that, mish-mash gets convoluted to senior management and then goes to board. It's no big surprise the border uninspired, right. Because there's a lack of engagement, but there's a lack of engagement because there's a lack of confidence.
Scott: I think going back to that ability to engage, [00:42:00] if you could say to somebody, you can hopefully fill it in, like you've done and put people into a meeting which is called and say, I want your opinions, but if you've never, or rarely in your day-to-day thing, enabled that to have.
It's not going to all of a sudden happen because you're in a meeting you're asking people to speak up. Absolutely.
Oakland: I think that's why you gotta be out there. Leaders have to get out there and talk to people. I mean, if you don't do that on a re on a semi-regular basis, as often as you can, then you're right Scott, but it just words, then it's not action.
It's not that nobody trusts you, that you are actually you care.
Geoff: And just one more on that. I agree wholeheartedly with that. And I remember when I was a chief exec. Public listed company. I used to do the coffee run and it was, I said to the secretary at night, I'll get my own coffee. I go to the coffee machine, pour my coffee, go around the whole flaws and office areas.
I talked to people and they were shocked that I that's, you spoken to them even more. [00:43:00] So I'd go out to the, to the county offices, I'd go doing exactly the same. Right. And I had an open door by the way. I also had an open door policy that anybody could come into my office. Anytime I would start work for them.
Sit them down, start to listen and understand what was going on. Sorry, Douglas, I don't want it to say that it was I think, I think that that needs to be more apparent, but you need a higher level of emotional intelligence in order to do that because somebody that has no emotions. More on the IQ academia side, you'll find the office will be closed and they'd be looking at the spreadsheets.
You know that right? The wisdom intelligence is making the right decisions. Douglas, you know that right to making the right decisions. You could actually say that with some of the things that we've talked around, listening, empathy, understanding communication could fall within spiritual intelligence, but you're never going to get to trust if you can't actually encapsulate or [00:44:00]integrate those, those intelligence practices into human behavior.
Right. So
Oakland: I agree. Sorry, I cut you off Scott.
Scott: I'm just the host. That's fine. So it's usually far more important what you said, doctor and I quite liked what you said. Talk to us about that. So when I was in the prison service, every time you walked onto a landing, you were never sure what it's gonna be. Yeah, every day was different.
So you couldn't be the same. So I think in those environments, what you really learn, what you really learn is that dynamic assessing what is this like compared to what it was like yesterday? What is this lad I'm talking to now? What was he like yesterday? Is there a difference? Do I need to alter how on what I'm saying to him to gain that influence over this person so that he can comply with the instructions voluntarily and willingly?
As you said, I did, some of the things you do is if there's a machine gun post over there, somebody shooting us. Do you mind going and [00:45:00] stopping the police have been very naughty. You're asking people to do some real high risk situations. There are life threatening. So again, in the prisons, when you're working that sort of environment, not, not as high risk as running a machine gun, but every day was slightly different.
Oakland: Yeah. I would argue on, on a day-to-day basis, your, that job is much more difficult than most of us in the military, but anyway, but
Scott: not probably not. We do have some programs over here was the presence that's. Most of it would be I was drinking tea, having a chat and somebody walking in every now and again, the reality of it is it's completely different to what people say, but yes, you walk in, you're on a landing with 70 people.
You're unlocking them, come on, let's go and get your breakfast, going your dinner, whatever it is, go to work. And you've got somebody who's they want into a life sentence, and you've got somebody who's in day 15, have a 30 day sentence next to each other. So you can't be the same with those two people to get that compliance and together.
And they've got to is about that calibration. I call it calibration and we calibrate in the moment with [00:46:00] what we're trying to achieve. Where are we? And then being able to read, what am I doing now? And are these actions helping me or hindering this event? Or what do I need to do different to create a different outcome?
So it's really has been quite attuned to looking at this person, if they react in the way I expected to, if not, why not? Cause they normally do. Okay. Maybe the and we didn't know because you haven't been offering, well, maybe he's been told his mom's just died as, I mean, he's been refused access to, he wasn't allowed to go to the funeral and then you're in the morning and morning and he's, he's not in the morning is he, he's not having a good day.
So you've got to really quickly sort of do that analysis and that sort of live dynamic assessing in that situation. And then I'm in it. What influence am I creating in this situation? Am I helping or hindering? And I think that goes back to what you were saying. Doug is having that, that real intuition in that fine awareness of impact.
And if you go into supermarkets or shopping mall, You can see where generally [00:47:00] we don't have it. Cause what we do is get focused on what we want our targets. Like I want to go and get the, the, the the middle car. I'm going to go get the, the the meat or the food I want. And we just go towards where we're going.
And we force other people to get out of our way, because we're not aware of what they're trying to do in that environment. Just watch people in a supermarket and see how enclosed in our little environments we are. We don't really look at the potential impact of our actions. And I think sometimes that's the same as when we're in work and we're leading people.
If we can just create that, help people create that sort of looking outside and Seneca. I want to get there, but this person's going to cross that. If I do that, I wouldn't stop them so I can just wait, let them go. And I can go. And therefore I'm working effectively with that person aware of where they're going and I'm not interfering in that, but I'm still achieving my goal.
So I just thought at that time, Scott, just
Douglas: I'll ask you a question. If you don't mind. We reversed the roles here. Let's make it fun. I would think also in that environment, which is enormously complex probably I agree with Oak it's probably a lot [00:48:00] more complex than, than what most people face in most leaders face is the importance of, of composure and not reacting too quickly.
And because sometimes human beings and as leaders, we, we, we can react quickly and certainly if your buttons are pushed and if it's a sensitive topic, but you know, one thing that is a great trait of a leader is the ability to have composure, to assess the situation and then to deal the situation. And I would think that's something that you've developed in that approach every morning, when you walk in there is to expect the unexpected, but to compose yourself, Then, you know, go through that process in your mind of how to approach an individual or a community of people.
But probably in your case, I would think you even more you even more developed than, than most leaders, because of just that the complexity of this
Scott: environment. Yeah. I think it gives you the opportunity to really, and the thing goes back to what we're all [00:49:00] saying about that self-awareness and to be a good leader, because there are people in that position who wouldn't be flexible, who didn't react, who didn't stop, maybe not aware of that awareness and the impact.
So the environment gives you the opportunity to raise the level of awareness to raise those skills, but it's still whether you choose to or have the capacity and the curiosity to actually develop and adapt within it. I still think as a personal choice, there is the option and I've seen people who worked in prisons and they were, they were that's it, the rules, and there's no flexibility with them at all.
And I've seen people with. And they have massively adaptive in the way they work and they're highly effective. So I think the, the, the environment provides the opportunities down to the individuals, capabilities, capacities, and willingness to whether to take that onboard and to then develop on that, which comes back to what you're saying about being that.
And I think Jeff as well, that hide heightened level of awareness and wisdom and do an end sort of develop [00:50:00] from
Geoff: that level of, of wisdom. For sure. Right. But it's also, you, you know, you're not going to get to loyalty with others unless you providing a solution.
Scott: No, and I, I found the most effective way when I was working with prisoners is to say, get them on your board in the journey, because it's not about me telling them what to do.
Cause you've got rules. You've got regulations. You can tell them, you can tell them all day if you wanted to. And it's fine. You would probably get a level of compliance and you do get a level of compliance, but really the British, the British legal system, our whole judicial system actually sits on that concept of cooperation.
It doesn't sit on a concept of authority and power. It really does sit on cloud because you think about it. You're working on landing. When I was at Bellmarsh, I think we had some nine 11 staff and 200 and 300 prisoners, 250 prisoners, 11 staff, [00:51:00] and we get, you've got gates. You've got process. You've got procedures, don't have guns.
We don't hold guns. Where we had was when I first started, whether we had a wooden stick.
Geoff: Just for the record. I mean, Douglas and Oak, probably not aware of Belmarsh. She wants to explain what Belmont she is. Cause it's a very high security prison.
Scott: It's unusual in a high-school prison because it also does what we call local stuff as well. So there's about, I think from memory is about eight high security prisons.
So they, they hold the high risk. So there's special units within all of them that are designed to do that. And so Belmont is one of them based in Southwestern, Southwest London, which it will ask them. So I worked there for a few years which is interesting. I also found that working with, cause I've also worked with every category of prisoner that exists in the UK.
So people on drug rehab, people on short-term programs, people on long-term. And I think that's where I learned collaboration as well, working on a wing where we had people who were on really long-term drug rehab programs, because their stories were horrific. These people had serious, [00:52:00] serious drug habits.
And we worked in partnership with the prisoners on that unit, the charity that was running the program and us as the prison staff. And we had to find a ways how we could sit down and collaborate and cooperate to make that unit work. If we went through the normal processes and say that and stuff. So yes, we had discipline.
Yes, we had to do that, but we had to look at ways of applying it in a way that would still reach what we were meant to be doing. I rules and regs, but also helps support them rehabbing and finding. So it was massively working with multiple stakeholders and collaborating and finding ways forward, which was really interesting as well.
Oakland: And I would argue that, you know, we go back to trust. I mean, those people have to have some kind of trust that you do have some.
You know, you, you want them to succeed. You want this to work. So, so they have to have that trust in you as well. If you want them to voluntarily [00:53:00] do things like you're saying, instead of the authoritarian, you're going to do this because that's the rules and that's the law. And if, if you can build that trust, like you're, you're saying that you did then then I think that you're, you're on that right track.
And it goes back to the trust piece stuff that, that Jeff talked about in the very beginning. I agree with that.
Scott: Yeah. I think trust is the basis of it all. But if working with them like holders, and if you can get an agreement, you're coming from someone from a different angle, goes back to what you were talking about, Jeff.
And you've got to trust what people are doing, but you've got to go into that collaboration with that empathy to say, I've got to understand where you're coming from and you need to understand where I'm coming from and how can we work together to get that common goal? That's right. We need to ensemble the common goal is to have that language of per.
Okay. Now what I've done, I can't bring everything. I've got lots of stuff. I've got to bring into this. It's got to work that I am there's rules and regs. I've got to follow the stuff you have to follow, and they're not mutually exclusive and they don't combat each other as how can we get [00:54:00] those to work together in a way that makes sense.
So you could, you could, that's a great Lego activity, by the way, you can get, these are my rules and regs and Lego. There's your rules and regs and Lego lets how we can put these Lego pieces together and create this thing that we're trying to do. And I think that was, that was really interesting sort of 18 months or two years, 18 months, I think I've worked in that unit 18 months of my career.
Really interesting. And it sort of, as I say, a lot of what you were talking about, different people, different perspectives, being open with each other, empathy, sharing what you could give and parts of yourself to get parts back as well. So as a leader, it's not just about the business and transactions.
It's about that emotional connection. So you gotta be willing to give something of yourself to get something back. Got. You're a person, the people you're working with people it's about what do you give to yourself and then find out what you're comfortable giving to your, about to yourself, to other people find your boundaries, and then you're comfortable going into those conversations.
Not thinking about it. It becomes more natural.[00:55:00]
Geoff: Yeah, I agree. I guess I got a final thought. Which for me, there are an awful lot of risks at the moment, Brian, and, but the risk has always been around forever. I think leadership is not saving just for business. I think I like to talk about leadership at home. I like to talk about leadership in business.
I like to be, think about leadership in life. And I think that with all of that said, I think we are responding strategically to a very interesting phase of life at this moment. Which needs, as we said earlier, Douglas, it needs a high degree of creativity, I think authenticity I think openness.
Right. But more importantly, a willingness, right? So that willingness to look beyond the obvious in addressing the issues and the threats. But I think with all that said, I think there are, there are opportunities for, for, for the minority [00:56:00] that decide Darwinism, flexibility, change adaptability, and more importantly, courageous leadership at that point to be able to include others and take them on a journey which will be inclusion, but also to better, better, a better place of growth development.
And, and. With empathy, you get happiness. People are happy. People won't be a part of something that they're happy and they've got growth, they got mindset, they got attitudes. And they got learnings. And I think all of that is in
Scott: incredibly important. Okay. Thank you very much, Jeff. Okay. If you got a final sort of Roundup you would like to finish with,
Oakland: I, again, I think this has been fantastic and, and I agree with everything that's been being said. I think we got to get to the point where people, you know, as we commissioned brand new lieutenants out of here, [00:57:00] which is our job, the last thing I tell them is go out there and make a difference because leaders make a difference in everybody's in, in, in every day, leaders have the potential to make a difference in the people's lives that.
Influence in the organization. And I think that's the, that's the difference between the average leader and the really good leader is the very good leader goes out there with the attitude that they want to make a difference, a positive difference in people's lives. And then the organization every day, you want to do that.
And if you, if you enter every day doing that as a leader, then you're building the trust. You're building the culture and you're actually going to help people. And if you help people, like Jeff said, if they're happy, they're going to do more for you. They're going to, they're going to like being it there and in your organization.
And, and it just goes back to that. Cause this is a privilege being a leader is a [00:58:00] privilege. And I think some leaders have forgotten that, that it is a privilege that you get to lead other people. And so you should make an effort to make a difference in those people's lives, a positive difference every day.
Douglas: Yeah, I think, first of all, thanks to, to yourself and Oak and Jeff are wonderful and really thought provoking conversation. I actually just want to continue. We Oak left off and really to say that I think each and every person in the world through the last two years, I'm sure. And I speak for myself, but I'm sure we all in the same space as deeply reflected on your life.
What makes you happy? Why does it make you happy times when you've been done and come to when you've been up? And I think for me, it's, it's made the world, whether it's through the great resign and, and things like that, but people want to be here. We don't, nobody comes to work to not do well. And so for me, I think we've got to the silver lining after these last few years and in many, but one of them I think is that I think [00:59:00] people have come with a stronger self awareness of what makes them happy, what drives them, and they laugh and their purpose and the opportunity for leadership to seize this and to really harness that energy that comes with that happiness and to align it.
And I would sign up, sum it up to say is leadership has an opportunity to burn the free fuel of this awareness of deep purpose on the bedrock of trust. And to be happy because that's what we want to be. Thank you. Lovely.
Scott: Thanks very much. I would just like to say, oh God, sorry. You can just say all I would just say, so thank you very much for gents for joining. It has been an absolute honor and a privilege, and the first time I've had three people on. So thank you. So there's me dipping my toe into the sort of head talk type territory. So hopefully it was a running excuse, any mistakes or errors I made on the way my view on leadership is to, for leadership and trust is two simple questions or two simple things to look at trust the look at the word is trustworthy.
[01:00:00] It's not trust it's trustworthy. So why questions? And it's what you do every scene. Again, single interaction you have with people influences that. So my question to lead is when I do some coaching occasionally, so I'll ask a simple question. What are you going to do today to demonstrate you are worthy of somebody's trust?
Geoff: And just to finalize on that, if you have you find somebody, you know, and I think we should be more caring. Yeah, like Douglas said, people have been through a lot in the last 24 months. If you can make one significant change to one person you've effective, positive change. Right. And that's surely what leadership is all about, right?
We're with the people that we have to reach out to people we have to care to be. We need more care in society. I don't mean look, when people are down, it's not just about making the next paycheck. It's about supporting loving and helping people. [01:01:00] Okay. Through all times when, when they're in, when they said celebrate, but celebrate when they're having a good time.
But when the down surely we should be there for our colleagues, our friends and the people that really matter to us most. And I think that that's an important role for lesion
Scott: compassion. Yeah, it's all bad. All right. Again. Lovely. Thank you very much. And thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you very much for listening.
Oakland: Thanks Scott. Appreciate it.
Wednesday Feb 16, 2022
How Might We Convert Our Knowledge Into Online Learning
Wednesday Feb 16, 2022
Wednesday Feb 16, 2022
My Guest this episode in Marie-Louise O'neil and she discussed how she used her experience and knowledge to create online learning and build a community.
Marie-Louise is equipped with a breadth of design knowledge and more than 16 years’ industry experience. I studiedpackaging and branding at university. Since then I've created everything from logo design, social mediatemplates and website design in the digital space, to printed brochures, adverts, banners and packaging.
Marie-Louise LinkedIn- https://www.linkedin.com/in/marielouiseoneill/
Marie-Louise Website - lovelyevolution.co.uk
Transcript
Scott: [00:00:00] hello and welcome to the latest edition of how might we on this episode, my guest is. Marie Louise. And we're going to be talking today about how might we convert our knowledge into online learning. So welcome hello and welcome to the latest edition of how might we would you like to Marie Louis? . Would you like to introduce yourself?
Marie-Louise: Yeah.
Hi, thank you. So yeah, I'm Marie-Louise from lovely Evolution and I specialize in branding, design and CANVA so a little bit about my business. I do design one to one's branding, so creating logos in layman's terms, and also I train people on how to learn, how to [00:01:00] design and create within Canva.
And I have a sort of working strap line that I sometimes use from crap creations to competent in CANVA so that that's me in a nutshell,
Scott: I quite liked that strap line and it's also, I spent hours working and then just got nowhere very fast. So so it's interesting to say, so you start helping people to do it.
So it'd be interesting to talk about your journey from obviously working one-to-one with people to realizing that or identifying that you can actually generate some learning content to help people become better at it themselves rather than you being doing it.
Marie-Louise: Yeah, well, it was a bit of a happy accident because I discovered CAMBA back in 2017 another client of mine said, have you heard about this thing?
And I had to look at it and thought it would work really well as part of my workflow, how I worked with my clients because it's all very well good [00:02:00] creating a fancy pants logo, and then what do they do with it? And I work with a lot of small businesses and I want to rather than be like, oh, well you have to come to me for every single little tiny change.
Where possible. I like to enable my clients to be able to either do it themselves or work with the VA. You know, certainly in the context of say social media where things are very fast paced. So I don't have the time to sort of do it in Photoshop and change it every time they want. And you and you post and certainly Photoshop and you know, whether this, or.
Yeah, professional design programs can be a bit clunky and a bit difficult and overwhelming to learn for, you know, the average person. So I was using it as part of working with my clients. And I was having more and more people going, well, I want to learn how to do it, you know, can you, can you teach me?
So I did a couple of free CANVA workshops for my local library in north Hampton. As part of being a [00:03:00] guest expert at the business and IP center North Hampton share. And and I was like, oh, well, there's something in there. So then I ran my first paid for workshop two years ago, it came up on Timehop quite nicely Facebook, yesterday, or the day before I was like, oh wow.
I hired a buffet as well. You know, it was like real people. And I thought that was great, but running an in-person event, you know, and one-off workshops are their own special beast. And I thought, well, you know, we're, we're already living in this sort of more global, international way. I was already doing a few bits and bobs on zoom.
And I really wanted to move my training online. So in January of 2020, I set up an online monthly membership where reserving training you know, like a 13, 30 to 40 minute training on a particular canvas tool or [00:04:00] like template and really breaking it down in my own kind of unique way of just telling you as it is, there was no kind of like trying to be perfect.
I wanted that audience participation, so they were kind of live events, but they. So I've got this fun curve, like a year and a half worth of training that I then went on to repurpose and I'm kind of relaunched as a group membership so that I could have a bit more flow to how people were being trained.
And so yeah, so it's, it's been a bit of an evolution for me because I rebranded myself planning to, you know, specialize in logo, rebrands and all of that. But in the meantime, I was getting really known for Canva. Hashtag CANVA girl and stuff like that. I didn't coin that way. And and I was like, well, there's something in it.
You know, not very many people. Certainly at the designers that I know locally that I was networking with really had [00:05:00] embraced CANVA like I did. So it was a really nice and fairly unique at the time combination of my years and years of design experience. You know, I'm a trained designer combining that with a really easy to use tool like CANVA.
And so it's been a really great combination. And for me, it's not, I feel that my training is not just about here's, how to use CANVA, you know, like it's, there's loads of there's loads of stuff on YouTube and stuff out there. You know, free resources for me, it's about trying to impart what I've learned. I'm really helping my clients to really develop that design eye.
So when I'm showing them something, I'm not just going well, you know, there is the tool aspect and features of it. That's part of it, but it's also about, you know, well, you need to consider lining things up and making sure there's a bit of negative space here, you know, is there balance to visit the, the design [00:06:00] and you know, is there a focus?
So I'm really trying to help them to hopefully understand what comes well, to me is second nature because I've been doing it so long, but it's not something that as a non-designer you would know automatically, and even using these great Canva templates, you know, necessarily understanding once you change things, if you change them too much, that you can't.
Water down the impact of the design or, you know, it's so it's no longer looking so great.
Scott: Okay. So you found this interesting, the journey you've gone through. So, so you went online before COVID
Marie-Louise: I was ahead of the game. Yes. And it was, it was part of my strategy even before then. I kind of come full circle really because I had been the summer.
So I guess, what was it about August time of 2019? I'd gone on a three-day workshop about [00:07:00] how to create an online course. And it was, it was also about the kind of marketing of it, landing pages, what kind of things you're training on. And so I sort of started working on that, but I just didn't like sitting in front of a camera, prerecording, all this training.
I didn't have that magic though. I have. When I even like one-to-one, you know, having a chat like this, but also, you know, working in a design context or training someone going, here's how you do this, whether it's one or a group. And so I kind of put down the idea of being an online course and that's where the membership kind of came into play.
And then I came sort of, as I said, full circle of going well, I've got this bank of prerecorded stuff, you know, it's, it was recorded live, but this is great content. How can I repurpose it and repackage it? So I've then kind of ended up with this hybrid model where there is stuff that people can watch on B play and, you know, [00:08:00] prerecorded, but also there's that group support so that I could get my fix of seeing people and helping them, you know, helping them have that aha moment.
So it works really well.
Scott: So do you think because of the stuff you were talking about it, it's not just about understanding how to use Canva. That's important to you, but it's about people gaining now, what do you call it? More of a designer eye, so to speak. So do you find that being with people and letting them play around with it and giving them feedback and working with them directly helps develop that.
Marie-Louise: Yes, because the way I give feedback, like, because you, what I discovered was that, you know, people will go away and try and do something. And when, you know, people have different levels of experience and confidence in using some form of new tech, you know, some people thought it work where they're like afraid to do anything, you know, trying to do something on [00:09:00] zoom, you know, like, how do I share my screen is, is really challenging for them because they're not used to it once they've done it a few times, then it's a bit easier and they can work out and it's fine.
And the same is a tool with canvas. Some people really take to it like a duck to water and others really struggled to do really simple things. So there's an element of, they've got so kind of practice with it and it's, you know, watching some training, whether it's mine or someone else's and break it down into composite.
But then once they got used to the kind of functionality of that program and doing from, you know, going from a, to B, is it where it's then elevating that of going well, how do we then make it look good? How do we make it appeal to our target market? So that's the kind of the upleveling that I bring is that I'm going well.
Okay. Well, so you've done this design. You're not sure about it. So yes, from a technical design point of view, I can explain how [00:10:00] you can improve it, but also don't forget, you need to appeal to your target market, you know, is it on brand, I using your brand colors? So it's all these things that are really important that people may not realize they need to be using within, you know, anything that they're creating.
Scott: From a training or a training. Cause obviously we've had some discussions before and I come from a learning and development or training backgrounds and you don't, and we had this discussion about how you've come along this journey. And one of the things you've talked about there is that the, the sort of the journey that you want people to take and breaking things into composite parts and saying, okay, to get to where we want them to be at the end, they need to be able to do a, B, C, D E.
And what is the best order in those to be scheduled, to have the most impact. And I don't think sometimes people don't take time to think about that sort of the learner journeys they call it or that, [00:11:00] that sort of, so if you want somebody at the end to produce something in Canva, that's going to be for their organization or for that, for their business, whatever, as you say, what's the important aspects that we need to do first.
So the foundations, and then what can we do? And then I just say every step is an announcement and built on the previous.
Marie-Louise: Yeah, because people aren't going to come into canvas for the first time and suddenly create an amazing piece of design. And even those people that feel really comfortable or love Canva, and they're like, it's amazing, you know, again, from my, you know, design point of view, there's things that could be improved.
You know, I'm not talking about being rude about that. You know, they just don't know what they don't know, but there are certain things that once they learn how to do that, Then they're like, oh, okay. You know, like theory, well, not even theory, but sort of rules on, you know, what to do with your text and things like that.
But you know, when someone is first starting out, there's no point bombarding them with, well, you need to do this, this, [00:12:00] this to meet your design look good. It's about, okay. Here's how, here's where to find this shape and adding this shape and changing the color. So there's, there's different stages of where people are.
For me, like a gap in my offering is creating something that is very focused at like someone who knows like nothing about camper. They know they want to do it. They've kind of tried, but they felt really overwhelmed. So it's, it's that kind of gap there that I want to, but I haven't. I'm focusing on my group program at the moment at getting that really going, which is for those people who are, you know, they can be quite new to CAMBA, but the type of stuff that I'm doing is not geared up to someone necessarily not knowing anything about Canva, but, you know, they can go on it.
But for me, knowing the kind of the specific Challenges that people who are very new to something and maybe are a bit afraid of how to use it. It there's sort of [00:13:00] some challenges there. So I will be, I've parked that idea. It's something that I want to do, but I, I want to sort of work out how best to deliver that.
You know, whether that's in a series of workshops or whether it's like its own like mini program or something that kind of plugs on to my existing group program. I don't know. I haven't sort of figured it out yet. It's
Scott: still going there. Just a quick question is that we've obviously we've talked offline a few times and one of the things that's quite interesting to say, so if you say you've been doing this for quite some time now, so how you deliver your face-to-face workshops or the online versions of what you do, how has that evolved for.
Was it January, January, February, last year to now, or has you've been doing it for just about 18 months now?
Marie-Louise: So of January of this year, I introduced an additional sort of segment two or a sort of plugin to my, my offering. So [00:14:00] I sort of, I had a fair bit of trialing different that the frequency of the trainings.
So for initially I think I was doing it fortnightly. Then at one point I was doing for quite some time, I was doing them three times. They were kind of weekly, but there were three trainings plus a Canva Q and A, which was open to everyone. So people could in theory, attend weekly. And that was useful for me to sort of get all that information out there.
But long-term, I felt that we've now reached a point where to have like the frequency of that kind of amount of trainings, not viable, not only for me, but also for those kind of in the moment. So in January of this year, I decided to make it a monthly training. But after the training, we have a bit of a comfort break and those that want to stay on can have like this classroom sort of scenario.
So it's a virtual classroom, but people can stay and I, and they can then [00:15:00] put into practice themselves. So the training portion is me talking through in my kind of you know, very kind of matter of fact, sort of, kind of sometimes bit of a plancha. I'll make some great crap jokes and you know, talk them through, you know, I'm delivering that information.
And so if they're watching a replay, they can, of course, pause it, implement it, and then, you know, press play and continue and work along. But the classroom side of it was to be able to get, cause the thing that I know from my own self of doing anything new or creating something, actually it's that getting started.
So by introducing that classroom element, it meant that I could help them to, you know, set up that, that first off, you know, they, they no longer have that blank screen. So that they can go, right. Okay. I click here, so I would take it, you know, take it in terms of those that wanted to take part and to say, okay, right now, [00:16:00] click on this and click on that.
And that was particularly helpful for some of them or kind of less confident members. And I think it was very, very useful and it taught me a lot about teaching as well. So that was really good. I think it is, it's important to have that chance to be able to implement what you've learned.
And if I can do that in a kind of classroom type scenario, I can then see them do that and help them where maybe they'd be too afraid to ask that question. Cause it's, you know, when they're doing it. So where is that? That fit there? You know, where's that tool so I can talk them through it and they're all learning from each other.
Scott: Okay. So I can do some, I can give you some. Learning theory now what was actually happening in what you're doing. So having the instructional aspect of it is cool. And that, that's fine. I think, and one of my, my, my areas of is when we do stuff for people, the instructional aspect is [00:17:00] sometimes the easiest to do, because it's our knowledge.
We can dump it into it. We can dump it on to a content that makes sense that we can look at making it engaging, and we can look at making it fun. As you say, breaking it down into parts that people can understand in a way that we're not doing sort of overloading them. But there's three things that you've really built into that at the end in those classroom things.
And one is experiential learning or experiential learning is helping people learn through experiences. So you're saying to somebody I'm going to support you. You're going to do something so play around with it, have a go once you've had to go, come back, talk to me, or if you want to help as you're doing it, because that's how most of us learn.
If you think back when we're, when we're at work and we're learning, we tend to play around with stuff and learn as we go.
Marie-Louise: That's certainly what I found when you know, getting to grips with you know, my design programs in the past, you know there was sort of certain tools of beaches within it that I don't use very often.
So I know that they're there, but until I need them, I'm not necessarily going to go away and learn everything [00:18:00] about a you know, this mammoth of a design program, but it's knowing that, oh, I want to do this and can I do it? And how do I do it? Go away and Google it. Work at find the kind of the blog resource that explains it or a video, put it into practice and do it.
And then if I do it a few times in a reasonable amount of time, it's more likely to stick in my head. So that's what I've experienced. So that's why it was important to me to integrate it. Otherwise it's all very well, someone sitting there watching a series of me training, but until they do it themselves, it's not going to have that same impact.
Scott: Okay. So there's another thing in there called just in time. So you'll work out. So you say you've got these there's learning material that you do this, this, this it resources that people can now access. So so there's a bit like, as you say, Google or YouTube where [00:19:00] people say, how do I do? And they ask them when they need to do something.
I don't ask that question always six months time. I might have to do something to help. How do I do it? They'll ask when they, when they come across that. So they might be thinking, I know there was something we did about the session. I know it's in there, but I haven't used it for a few months, so they can just Google it.
So it's say having your content searchable and accessible afterwards enables what we call just-in-time training. So people can access stuff at the point of need.
Marie-Louise: Yeah. And that was something that I did implement within my monthly membership of trying to collate the the links to all the re the, the training videos in a As possible way.
I mean the, the future plan is to be using something, you know, some sort of online course provider or platform, but for now I'm just utilizing Facebook and having private Facebook groups and you know, it's, it's doing what I can right now. I'm kind of, but [00:20:00] it is, you know, there's still stuff that you can do.
So it was pretty basic, but I created a Google spreadsheet that, you know, people could search within it to a degree, you know, it had its pitfalls, but it was trying to, to do what I could with the resources at the time. But that's something I'm conscious of, of making sure that people can easily find what they, what they need.
But often people just like, how do I do that? Just go tag them in the relevant video, because that's where the, I guess customer service bit comes in. People can search it just within the Facebook group. There is that search ability to a degree, you know, there's obviously have you picked the right search term and stuff like that, but yeah, that was something that I was also conscious of.
Scott: Okay. The other aspect you've built into it is what we call social learning. So giving people, the app, the opportunity to learn together in groups, which is really powerful. So it's not all [00:21:00] about I'm the trainer, you're the student and I'm going to teach you everything is about encouraging people to.
Ask each other questions as well. I learned together. So somebody say, how'd you do this? And I think we've all done it in class where somebody said understood a concept quicker and they'll help the person sat next. Again,
Marie-Louise: that's something I've experienced, you know, in more recent times, as well as the whole night at school.
And I need the best and stuff like that. But I've invested in group coaching over time and some of that's included one-to-one as well. But I found the most powerful bit was actually the group coaching portion where, you know, sometimes you'd have the issue and you would share that and, you know, we'd get the opportunity to add that out and get some advice and suggestions.
But also being able to give advice to others, you know, or hear other people's problems and pain points and be like, oh, okay. I can relate. I was there a couple of months ago or, you know, and this is how I got through it or just you know, so yeah, that, that shared experience [00:22:00] or, or learning from each other's mistakes or experiences for me is really powerful.
Scott: So it sounds like when you're setting up. Changed in some, some of the delivery you've done, but what you're using is your experience of being of learning, which we all have done our entire lives at some point or other and taking the bits that worked for me. So I want to make sure that's in there. Yeah. I learned this way.
This is how I learned this. I found this related to the group coaching. I found that really powerful the ability to get hold of content as, and when I need it and to break things down into manageable chunks. So I think there's a, there's something called cognitive load, which is the amount of information we can actually process.
And there is a risk if you're an expert at something or, you know, a lot for you, it's not a lot of information and you can just information dump onto people. I think you've used the word overwhelmed. And it's really easy to do if you're an expert or been into a field for a long time, because it's stuff you [00:23:00] just know because you've, as you say, you've been dealing with this or bits and pieces and you do it intuitively.
Marie-Louise: Yeah, well, that was something that I've been looking at how I can help the the, the members of my group programs that I recently launched that there's it's quite small, but it's looking at, you know, where they're at, where the, when and where they are with regards to like learning. And as far as I'm aware, they haven't started yet.
And it's like, okay, well, that's fine. Some of them, like, one of them I know has experienced some personal staff. Another one I made sure to have some one-to-one to them to get to know them a bit as well, whilst the group is quite small, but for me, I'm like, okay, well, There'll be ready when they're ready to sort of access it.
But in the meantime, what about I break down these training videos that I've already started uploading into the group as guide and the Facebook group, but how about if I sent them an [00:24:00] email fortnightly with each one? So I'm not sending the whole program in one go, but it's a kind of keeping in touch exercise.
It's another way that they can store that information. Cause it can be quite nice to be able to have a designated folder on the, you know, email provider that they can put stuff there. They may not necessarily be like, okay, well I'm going to start doing the program, but they. I guess they can feel supported knowing that I'm thinking of them and I'm delivering that, but it may also encourage them to actually do it because rather than seeing it in the context of the Facebook guides and feeling overwhelmed, I'm delivering it and drip feeding it in a bite sized way.
It's still the same content it's still there. But it's just giving them a different way of accessing it a different delivery method.
Scott: Okay. So several things that we've talked about as we've talked about, like bite-size, which is another concepts, which I won't go into now, then we've talked [00:25:00] about a social learning experiential just in time.
And then I quite liked the way you said, cause I I've, I've noticed it a few times. People say my content is up there, people buy it and they just say, that's it for now? They say you've bought it, then it's your responsibility to do it. But I do think as a provider of learning, it's our responsibility. We have responsibility as well to try to encourage people to consume the content and to do what they've actually paid to do.
So it's not just about people saying I'm on the program and then I'll say right, there you go. There's all the content get on with it.
Marie-Louise: I mean, it was don't pop my values you know maybe for some people. They don't care. I mean, it's, you know, ultimately I can't force people to go and watch what I created and put what I've tried to teach them into practice.
And I will say I get that. Sometimes things get in the way and, you know, you know, there were other things that are maybe [00:26:00] more important in that moment, but I guess it's making sure that I can do everything I can as this learning provider to make sure that I. Being that to help them to learn and looking at different ways to engage them in, in the content and keeping in touch and, and all of that, you know, ultimately, you know, as the program grows, you know, I don't know how, how much level of being able to keep in touch I can do to the same degree.
And maybe that will evolve over time, but certainly, you know, I do want people. To get what they've paid for, but ultimately it is also their responsibility to watch it and do it. But it's, it's trying to get that balance. Isn't it of doing everything you can to make it as easy as possible that there's different learning methods or in terms of by that for [00:27:00] me, I mean that, there's a video.
I'm now sort of working on creating handouts to go alongside it so that there's like a written summary and maybe additional information. For example, I've got a, a unit which is all about creating your own logo using Canva. And that handout is massive. That's one of the ones that I have managed to do, and there was so much more than just.
Here's the logo. Here's how to create it. There was a lot of other stuff that I really wanted people to know about if they were to ever want to create it themselves, that at least I've delivered that information. They may choose not to read it or implement any of that. But again, it's being able to provide information in different formats.
I run it early enough. I don't really like watching videos that much like it, if someone you know, on social media, for example, someone has a video come up. There's that? Oh, how long is it? Have I got time to watch it? I [00:28:00] prefer to read my content. And I think the same is true. If you're just wanting to have a summary of what you've learned, you know, going back to remind yourself of how to do it.
Sometimes you don't want to watch it a full 30, 40 minute video. You just want to be like what the highlights again, you know, and sometimes being able to skim read is better. So. You know, we all have different learning kind of approaches or preferences to absorbing that information. I'm not something that I've learned.
In fact, I learned it on that three day online course that those, you know, people like to absorb that information. Some people like to listen, some are very, there's all the different sensors or something. Some are very light speeding based. So yeah, so I took that into consideration as well until now more recently most of my stuff has been very video based.
Whereas now I'm looking to sort of back that up with those handouts that can be helpful. So those that just want to read it or they want [00:29:00] to download it and have this collation of this information. Maybe even printed out some people like to print out and have a physical copy. So that's what I've taken into consideration too.
Scott: Okay. So it sounds like when that you did this three-day course, they talked about what we call learning. It was about how people learn. Yeah. The science behind that is unfounded. So well the unfounded is, yeah, there are ways we prefer, but there's no guarantee that if you consume data or information, the way you prefer that you are going to learn any better.
Marie-Louise: I think it was in the context more with the marketing side of it though. Not so much in terms of the delivery of the the course material itself. If I remember correctly that bit, but it's that thing of sort of, when you're putting stuff out, you hitting the different ways to, to get that content out there.
Scott: I say some people just prefer, so if I see a video I haven't got along or I'll just say, can I [00:30:00] just put it on, in this, on, in the background, like in the ear? So, or do I read something? And I like reading, I like touchy feely stuff. Cause then I can hold it. I can highlight what bits. Having the opportunity for people to say, to learn in different ways that suits their lifestyle and the way they are as an individual is good.
And I do think there there's, I think people sometimes just go for one medium, whether it's all written or video, whatever. And if you have a combination of both, then it's much more likely that people will actually do it. And to me, and I really agree with what you say is about, yeah, I can't make somebody do what they're paid to do.
I can't make somebody sort of make sure they do the camera and do all this that w that they've been paid to do. Cause they there's a need for them. They just haven't and they, they so they've paid for that. But what I can do is make them using it as easy as possible for them, so that the barriers to them actually taking part and participating in delivering the impact [00:31:00] is, is there is a few as possible.
Therefore they're much more likely to. Yeah, I think thinking about that, what can I do to make this as easy as possible for the people who've paid for it, rather than I've just put it up. There is self directed, which basically means we've taken the responsibility. We're going to give it to somebody else which happens in learning and training.
And I think that's an error. We have a responsibility as well. How can we prepare the people to learn? We make that as easy as possible for them.
And then bit for me is then how can we support them in actually applying what they've learned in a way that's easy for them to do they're motivated to do and give them the opportunities to do. And that's the, that's the last bit of the journey. So I was thinking of the journeys three, what are we doing before?
What are we doing during and what are we doing after
Marie-Louise: a rinse and repeat,
Scott: but to be, yeah, to a degree, and then you can add, you can add things into. [00:32:00] What you're doing with people much more sort of dynamic as well. So you could add, so you could add challenges into, into the course say right, this week's challenge is, and just, and then people might respond to that.
Cause it's a challenge rather than just giving people content, because if they like the channel, that sounds interesting. I'll do that. You could, that you could do things like spot the differences so you can give them two different things and say, spot to spot the differences. What's there. Assuming this.
Marie-Louise: Yeah, I've done that more, not so much in terms of the context of my, any of my paid membership or programs, but certainly in my free Facebook group did a, a spot, the Eastern. Can I game and my son made one for this year. We made one together last year. And so people could, it was like a virtual Easter egg hunt.
Cause we're looking at, in this picture. And then in March for mother's day, I sort of did a sort of create a sort of flowery like design, you know, I kept it quite open, but it didn't [00:33:00] have to be about mother's day. It just had to be very floral and like go for it. Just really have fun with it. And I'd pick a name out of the winner, you know, out of a hat as it were, and they would win a bit of design time with me.
So that was a bit of fun just to see about getting some engagement. So maybe I need to come up with a few more of those.
Scott: Move from the concept of training is that formal giving people, handouts, giving them information. So the objective is them to be able to do what we want them to do, and that the opportunities to encourage people to engage in that and to learn is limitless. And each one of those is a valid learning opportunities.
So if you think about what do I want somebody to be able to do? How can I create something that will help them do that in a way that's fun, engaging easy for them to do and give them a motivation to do it. If you can drop lots of those in, especially if it's around certain. So you might have a, a a [00:34:00] specific tool within canvas that you would like to help people learn to do, maybe do a competition about how many different ways can you do.
I don't know. Cause I don't know Campbell well enough, but there's lots of different things that you could do as part of that, that will get people learning, having fun, but doing it in such a cool. Yeah.
Marie-Louise: Well, I experienced that for con because Canva has got their own Facebook group. And I happened to see that they were doing a hashtag meet with CAMBA challenge and it was creating a video.
I suspect that I ended up not meeting the deadline because there was confusion over the, the deadline time and, and the international. There was a bit of it. I wasn't the only one, but there was me thinking, all right, I've got time. I've managed to make it. And then, and then some were saying, oh, it was closed.
I don't know. But I, it, it still meant that I had two hours putting together this like two minute video, which I'd recorded and put together using [00:35:00] all these different elements to really bring together what camp means to me. And you know, how it's changed, you know, what the impact of it has been and that she, that okay.
Well, whether I've managed to. Please submit it or not. It was something that I used as my sort of intro or pinned video on my YouTube channel. And I shared every, you know, a few places and I was like, well, actually, I'm really proud of that. Because I have a purpose to creating something. I had a reason and a reason to do it and had a lot of fun of it.
So it did push my like video creation skills a bit further. That's
Scott: good. And then you've, you've introduced another word that's important for learning with adults as well as purpose, purpose, and related. Can I relate to it and is there a reason for doing it? So can I relate to that reason as well? Does it make sense to me?
Because as you say, if you've got something, you know, life happens, isn't it. We do other things. [00:36:00] So it's thinking about how can I encourage people to do it and say, give it, create a purpose around it, create a reason for it. Those types of things, if that makes sense.
Marie-Louise: Yeah, it comes back to that thing of, you know, why you doing something, you know?
It's sometimes I need to remind myself of the why even on simple task or, or things that I'm kind of no way should be doing, but I don't enjoy so much if I, if I take in to like, why is this important? It may not be fun, but if I don't do it, what happens? So, you know, it's looking at it from the different aspects, whether it's something that you want to do and it's quite fun or it's, you know, you enjoy it versus something that, you know, it's important, but it comes down to why and kind of links to the purpose aspect.
Scott: Oh, never underestimate the power of purpose. It drives so much human behavior so much understand why we're doing something. I mean children [00:37:00] is their favorite word.
And I, and that requirement for understanding, doesn't go away. As we grow older, we just get told to stop asking. So we still need, or that's still an important driver for us to do stuff. So say, this is what we're doing. This is why, if it isn't, you can make it a competition. You can make it a learner.
You can say, you can ask people to buddy up share something you've done with Canva. You think the rest of the community would find useful.
Marie-Louise: Yeah, I guess it's having a curiosity as well. Maintaining that that's something that children naturally have is that curiosity. And as adults, we can still enjoy that play.
I think there it's, as you said, it's been drummed a bit out of us, but it's something as a creative person, myself, It's really important to be able to recharge and find other methods of way from my laptop to be able to be creative. I [00:38:00] don't do it as much as I'd like, because it's sort of, again, it's that you get kind of hung up with or in that busy mode of day-to-day life, you know I'm a mum, so I've got mum life and all of that.
I run my own business, so there's lots of things going on. But what I noticed is when I take time to do something just, just for fun or just because you can have you can really discover new things or, you know, you're not, you know, really kind of like, oh, I've, I've got to create this and you've got this set idea of what you want.
There's that kind of discovery of an unexpected outcome. And that's just part of learning as well. You know, if you're not kind of, if you're open to possibilities that that kind of word limitless and I think the same is true. You know, whether it's in the context of CAMBA, if you're creating something, you know, yes, you might have a goal of what you want to produce, but you know, it's about being a bit [00:39:00] more open-ended with it and making it the best you can with the abilities you have in that moment at time.
And it kind of comes back to my ethos and, you know, the, everything is a work in progress. I don't know who coined that quote, but it's something that I use a lot in my marketing and it ties in with that, that evolution. Because know we are ordered evolving. It doesn't have to be all perfect first time.
And in the context of learning, you know, that you, you sort of learn a bit and you get a bit better and then, you know, learn a bit more. And it's, it's those sort of almost like the bricks you're laying the bricks one on top of the other you're building on it. You're not just going from, you know, one thing like ground zero to like a, a massive high story building.
It takes time. There's those steps between, and I think the people who were frustrated with what they're creating or doing have, [00:40:00] have maybe forgotten that actually it takes time to learn and implement it, or they've maybe not thought of it in terms of how many hours they've actually used Canva. Cause there's that I read somewhere a couple of years ago.
I think that there's an app. It takes like 10,000 hours or something to become an expert in something. I mean, it varies on like professional stuff like that, but, and I actually hit, at that point, worked out how many hours I'd actually been learning and doing design. I think at that point it was sort of around 25 plus 25,000 plus.
So that, that makes me a super expert. I would definitely, but yeah, and people don't think of that. You know, they forget how many, you know, hours and years of experience of their area of expertise. You know, they didn't become that overnight. They weren't born that way. They might have a [00:41:00] natural affinity for what they're doing, but they've developed that skillset.
And so sometimes they forget with when it comes to Canva that they're like, oh, is this, you know, it's built as this easy to use tool, but not everyone's going to get it first time and not everyone's going to have, you know, the outcome that they, they want, you know, depending on where they're at with their kind of skill set and have they got a natural design eye for it and all of that.
Scott: And there's lots of that. And I that's it. So to me, it's the iterative development of stuff. So if we believe that we'd developed iteratively I one step at a time, can we deliver content to help people on that journey rather than delivering that much content, which nobody can see because I've got a hand gesture, but
Marie-Louise: so the big box.
Scott: A huge amount of stuff to help people get there. What are we doing to make the journey [00:42:00] iterative? Is that generally how we do so we occasionally have an aha moment which creates a leap, get those at anything we do. All of a sudden things just sort of click into place and yourself, you just sort of go up a couple of levels quite quickly, but most of the time, we're just, as you say, taking those one step at a time, developing as we get better, slightly better at something.
And then something three or four things may click and we can do three or four things a lot better quickly. And we have those occasional leaps, but most of the time, it's not most of the time it's iterative steps. So if we think that's how people develop skills, how can we create what we're doing in a way to help people on that iterative journey rather than the big block journey that you tend to see people.
Marie-Louise: Yeah, well, I guess that's the thing is, is being aware of that. I think it's useful to be able to give people the option and that's where sort of allowing people to access the information so that if they want to, they can just go directly to what they want to know about and not [00:43:00]follow that learning path that maybe as a, you know, you know, the delivery you put out there, you know, I've got there is a, in my mind, a logical sequence to what I've, you know, creates the order of training.
But someone else might be like, well, that's all very well good, but I haven't gone through that as yet, but I just want to skip and watch the video to learn how to make a a really good social media post, or I need to create a banner for my Facebook page. How do I do that? What do I put on it? So they can go straight to that video.
So it's, it's getting that balance, isn't it?
Scott: Yeah. I think if we yes, if we predetermined the journey somebody takes on and what we've probably got is we're trying to like a sheep dip, basically. Everyone's got the same. So you go, but that's the cheek dip solution for everybody. And we're not all the same.
So as you say, right, people, people will get aspects of Canva really quickly. Some people have a [00:44:00] few more things to overcome. Other people who've got more of a design idea than others. Other people just say, I'm coming on new course. Cause I like what you do. It gives me access to this material, but I only want to get what I want when I want it.
I don't really want to learn everything. I'm not interested in doing that because it D I just want to know, as you say, I just want to do a band next. I'm going to do a band next week. So I need to, I need to learn how to do that. And then I need to do a post-it and I need to do this, and then they'll learn as they do in it, but they're seeing the practical applications of it.
Cause it makes sense to them at that time. So enabling people to sort of say, right, I've got all this stuff, what's the best way for me to get the best out of it for me, I think that's the questions. I think if we have an audit, there's a risk of people as they put their content in, in a way, and it's predetermined, you've got to do this, you've got to do that.
You've got to do this. And it's a lot of Ellen Lotte training is like that as well. And I think it's online gives us the ability that you've demonstrated of creating that [00:45:00] opportunity for people to just take what they need when they need it in. However they need it. That's ultimately what we're providing, we're providing something for your clients to make because they don't pay for your training.
Marie-Louise: Yeah. I know. They, the, the real power is the the live sessions in the group, setting
Scott: the ability, again, as this go by that experiential testing them questions or feeling safe to do so, but they pay for the impact they pay for what they can do after whatever is they want to do. So if somebody goes to watch a video about a social media posts or a banner Facebook banner, they're not paying to learn, they're paying to have a decent banner.
That's the painful they're paying for the outcome of the impacts. You're just you're training
Marie-Louise: before and after thing, isn't it, you know, before the training or buffer before they've learned how to do it better, that's where they're at. And so it's taking them from a [00:46:00] to B.
Scott: Absolutely.
As somebody who's been through this journey and has created a way of doing it, that's very similar to how you've enjoyed learning in your past, which I think is a really good way of looking at it and saying, what did I, when I learned, how did I learn? And what did I enjoy doing is okay, how can I create the same for my clients rather than having this I've got training course, this is how we're meant to do it.
And this is how it's meant to be done, which goes about looking at it from a supplier's point of view, rather than the consumer's point of view, what would be your tips for somebody who's either just about thinking or has something and they want to make it better. They want to enhance what they've currently got.
What would be your tips for them?
Marie-Louise: Well I think it's, it's about making more don't over complicate things in terms of what you're delivering. Because I'm, there's a part of me, that's all stressing out about uploading further modules within, within my group program. And I'm [00:47:00] like, I haven't delivered that.
I had a kind of schedule in mind, but that she probably the people in the group where they're at and what they're doing, it's not actually that important. They have got some, you know, the first module to be looking through if they want to start accessing it in sequence. But I guess it's that thing of going well, what can I do to make sure that they can start?
And you know, you can always develop an add things in later. So what can you do right now to deliver that information? You know, I've had some, you know, been to some great online workshops where someone has just sat there and impart that information. They not even necessarily had a slideshow. So obviously if you've got a slideshow, which is.
No, the training then obviously making it look nice without putting everything, you know, and the kitchen sink on it. But it it's, I guess it's just about getting [00:48:00] started, you know, because you will learn as you develop. I think people get, so heads-up about how they get perfect and they spend, you know, maybe even years doing.
And then they, you know, they've missed the boat, you know you know, yes, we've got our own ideals of like how we want it to be, you know, there are, you know, maybe there were certainly better ways for me to hold this information. I certainly want to do a bit of editing of these pre-recorded trainings in time.
I'm going to have to rerecord them because they're going to meet your point where canvas moved on enough that it's our date. But it's, it's looking at, okay, well, it, for me, it's an ongoing cycle of improving what I'm doing. So rather than waiting till it's all perfect. It's okay. Well, what can I do to really impart my knowledge in an easy to way, understand, not trying to be perfect with you know, how I turn up, I'm making sure that I do turn [00:49:00] up and that people can get that information.
Scott: So the MVP, the minimum viable products, what is, what is enough for me to, I quite like the said the iterative it's, don't be afraid to experiment, try something. And if it doesn't, if it doesn't bounce with your, with your thing and find out why it doesn't bounce and make that change.
Marie-Louise: Yeah. Because I think you can also spend a long time creating this say online course, and then no one wants to buy it because you haven't done the research.
Maybe if, is there a need or you've not really done the research into your target market, but you know, what problems that you need to solve. So if you've done a bit of testing first or done it on a sort of. You know, a smaller scale, you can then work out well, actually, is this idea worth developing further?
[00:50:00] You can get feedback from those first people. That's what I done all along. You know, everything that I've been creating, I've asked for feedback to, so that I can be okay. Sometimes I've had my own feedback for myself where I'm like, okay, I deleted this. Like I did an introduction to CAMBA workshop last summer.
So we were in lockdown and I had about five people come on and I had an idea of how I wanted it to be what it was priced at, how long it would be. And I didn't quite deliver, cause I did my little talk about the foundations of kind of branding and they didn't want to know that. So there was like 20, 30 minutes of what I think is really important, but actually.
They really wanted to just know about camper. So all the branding stuff was just like, well, that's great, but it's not interesting. So what, excuse me, what I did was arrange another date to do some more time with them so [00:51:00] that they felt that they got that chunk of learning that they really wanted. So I learned from that experience, so what I thought in my mind, what was important and actually what they booked on and what they wanted to deliver to them, there was a slight mismatch.
So I did have that chunk where I was delivered, but there wasn't enough because of the time taken out waffling about funding, which is important, but not in the context. So that's sort of, I guess for me, because I've learned that has maybe in a way made me hold back from creating this product or course, or whatever, it will be aimed at introduction to Canva because I've kind of had.
In part negative experience where I'm like, oh, but it's looking at how I can learn from that mistake or experience, you know, and make sure that I can deliver the best that I can at that point.
Scott: I quite like that the I [00:52:00] doubt it was waffling, but yes, it was, it was not what they wanted to learn at that precise moment in time.
Remember that just in time. So they think, again, this isn't why I'm here and we'd make that predetermined choice. So one, a tip for you is talk to people who have been through the journey of learning Canva and say to them, if there's 10 things you want it to, you would have wished you'd known at the beginning, what would they be?
And then that helps you say the people, what that does is using that information. You're then trying to make sure that what you're delivering is what people actually needed. So as the concept of lean into learning,
what is it? So if 80% of your time at Canva in the first three months you used Canva, what did you, what did, what was the 10 tasks you spent 80% of your time doing? And then what you're doing, you're delivering the skills that people need 80% of the time, [00:53:00] which is what they're going to be spending the majority of their time.
So that's, that's bringing in that sort of lean concepts into what we deliver is content, give people what they need to know to be able to move on. And then as they go along and get more sophisticated and learn more, then maybe it, right. I now need to look at my branding and now need to look at this.
It might be something that's further down the line as important. Once they've learned what they want to do with Cameron, then the design stuff and the branding and everything like.
Marie-Louise: Yeah. And again, it comes back to what I know about branding and design and Canberra, et cetera. I'm coming at it from a different place of expertise and knowledge.
So I I'm talking about branding, so I know it's important, but in the moment where someone is just very new to camper, all of that other stuff is just not so important. So it's it's, I guess it comes back to isn't it about focusing on what the needs of that, that user, what did [00:54:00] they need to learn in that moment?
Being clear about what you're delivering to them and making sure that they get that.
Scott: Okay. So that's what we've been waffling for an hour. Did you know that it's an hour already? So thank you very, very, very much. It's been really informative and I love hearing, I mean, I love learning anyway, but hearing somebody's journey and how you've approached it.
So it shows you, you don't have to be an expert in learning to develop stuff that works because training and learning is common sense.
Marie-Louise: Yeah. And I didn't, I didn't get any, I didn't. Well, aside from, you know, the three-day online course, I was like, so don't, but aside from that, I haven't gone to, I haven't got any formal training to be a teacher or anything like that.
I've just gone. What did I find work for me? Try to do it as best as I can got feedback and improved it.
Scott: That's it that's the only way. Cause [00:55:00] I've been in training for years. I still get feedback off. I do is still develop, develop new things, come in new ways of doing stuff. And it's about engaging that all the time.
As we, as we move on, as you say, what you do for Canva now is okay today. But if they'd bring out something tomorrow, then that aspect is out of date and we have to improve and we have to continue to.
Marie-Louise: Yep. They keep bringing me these speeches.
Scott: This is good in a way it's frustrating because I've got to give up date and stuff, but then if you keep on top of it, then you are the person with the most up-to-date content, which is important as well.
I think people think this is evergreen. I can produce something once and it can resell, resell, resell, resell but just think is how valid is that going to be after a while?
Marie-Louise: It's something that I have to keep in mind. Cause I'm writing a book about Canva. I was asked to do it by some print on demand publishers who specialize in manuals for like specific programs and things like that.
And I didn't want the book to be just about. Here's how to use camper. There is a lot of that aspect, but there's also a lot of what I've [00:56:00] talked about. What what's important to me. And I think is important for the users is learning about design and branding. It's not heavy and lots of, you know, folk down with design theory, but it, there is a bit of that it's kind of design theory light because it's, it's that where there you know, and hopefully that, that side of it, that approach to how I'm sort of trying to deliver that information means that it will have a bit more longevity even beyond when, you know, they update this and new features of that because that's always the case with any kind of program there will be updates.
And I think they will do like new additions every so often, but certainly it's about getting that balance between something that is valuable. And Paul evergreen or totally evergreen, but also having the ability to update it and stay current.
Scott: Okay. Well, I'm looking forward to when that book comes out.
I might actually read it, [00:57:00] although it T I pay people to do my brand name because it's somebody I'm not very good at. I don't have a design as I, and I'm, I'm a great believer in working with strengths. So if I'm not very good at something, I bring people on board to a much better at it than I am, cause it's quicker.
Marie-Louise: And I
Scott: think we probably will do for a while yet. So thank you very much for your time. It's absolute a pleasure talking to you. And obviously any links that you want just click on the links at the bottom to go to your website, et cetera. Okay. Thank you very much.
Wednesday Aug 11, 2021
How Might We Be Us In The Workplace
Wednesday Aug 11, 2021
Wednesday Aug 11, 2021
In this episode, my guest is Simon Payne. Simon is a tattooed, creative, commercial, and highly focused individual who has been working in learning and people development since 2004. He ran an innovative team-building company for 9 years before fully focusing on training, capability, and performance consulting, and people strategy.He’s proud to have worked with hundreds of organisations and thousands of people, across multiple business sectors, worldwide.He’s got my own attitude, style, and very forward-thinking. He thinks it’s vitally important to challenge and not settle for OK.His approach is simple, be human.His special power (I don’t say shazam though – well not often) is getting inside the head and heart of the problem – understanding what makes people and businesses tick – and this means challenging the status quo sometimes.
In this episode Simon and I discuss the concept of being oneself in the workplace, not having one persona for work and one for home. We meander through the concepts of growth mindset, leadership, learning, and psychological safety. And maybe it all boils down to being more human in business.
03:19 I employ you and not your family
04:29 COVID may well help us look at how we work together
08:05 How do you be more human in business
09:26 It is the system that is broken, not the people
10:46 We can’t grow in fear
12:37 What is the role of trust?
14:51 All the stuff about being human we are good at; so why can’t we do it?
16:18 Team charters
18:04 We all want to have a social connection and a positive environment
21:00 Helping employees set their own objectives
22:57 Peer to peer feedback
27:47 The role L&D can play
35:50 Organisations being brave, and try something different
40:18 Start with yourself and learn from other departments
44:38 Be careful what we define as success
46:01 Businesses are not around forever
49:18 How we can adapt to the new normal of work
57:24 The role of leadership
Simon’s LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/simonjpaynegotskills/
Simon’s Website: https://www.punkincorporated.com/
Scott’s Website: https://theinnovatecrowd.com
Tuesday Jul 13, 2021
How Might We Return to Purpose in Talent Development
Tuesday Jul 13, 2021
Tuesday Jul 13, 2021
My guest this episode is Adrian Waite, Adrian is a Strategic HR & Talent Leader, Executive Coach, Consultant, Writer, and Speaker. Currently Head of Talent for Boehringer Ingelheim in META, specializing in “Purpose Driven Performance” through bespoke Talent, OE, OD, Leadership & Management support systems, which produce learning as a by-product of optimal performance experience.
We discuss the role of L&D in delivering ‘Purpose Driven Performance.’ How we should be careful of ‘Best Practice’ and be aware of cultural, people and landscape differences. The need for organisations to embrace experiments and learning from outcomes. Let us focus on the purpose of what we are trying to do, and we touch on principled negotiation.
Adrian shares some thoughts on leadership development. Asking questions to get clarity on what the leaders need to be able to do to fit in their space in the organisation. Do we need to extract leaders from the real world for five days to talk about the theory of what is being done in the real world?
To be honest, who in your organisation cares about learning outcomes?
In the leadership space, we tend to be happy with generic approaches that would not be tolerated in a technical environment. Should we look at leadership development in the same way as technical development, what specific things do your leaders need to be able to do?
Adrian explains his principle of developing leaders to perform first and learn through performance. This approach goes against the grain of a lot of leadership development that exists. We need to be working with leaders on the challenges they are facing tomorrow. We can use employees' roles and life cycles to narrow the focus of development.
Can we develop an approach that lets leaders drop in and out as they decide? Letting leaders engage when they have the need to do so, rather than one size fits all and waiting for a space to be available.
Covid has given us the opportunity to work in a test environment and question what is essential and what adds value. And we can now move to work on the future and what that might look like. That enables L&D to look at how to develop and support people to be effective and efficient within that.
Kids ask ‘What is the point of you?’ it is a profound question and we should explore it on a regular basis. If we want the performance, we need the purpose underneath.
‘We are in the performance business – that is my point’
Do you know the purpose of your role, department, function, or project? Knowing this can help cut out some of the noise and help you prioritise the important stuff. We are often talking about inputs and not the purpose, however, the purpose is what underpins everything.
There is a need to provide the support that is linked to operational needs and landscape changes. We need a different mindset, moving away from generic and topic-led solutions. We can learn from other specialists, such as marketing to help make the shift and rethink how we do things.
Working in partnership with senior leaders, working towards high purpose outcomes that are critical to the survivability of the organisation you can get a pass on the metrics. Don’t wait to be asked for a seat at the table, go around and get to understand what are the pain points. Work with them to see how you can support them to deliver on their objectives.
What metrics are important, it may not be what you expect. Elevating L&D professionals to trusted advisors. It is not about proposing programmes, but supporting and helping, that approach can quickly elevate your role within the organisation.
‘You may not get to play with everybody with the current plan, but you’re a lot more likely to get to play in the future plans because there is no threat in that.’
Be selfless, L&D serves to enable others to achieve their goals, we are there to help performance to be achieved. The role you played will become evident and your reputation will grow, there is no need to bang your own drum.
If you can – choose your boss.
Adrian’s LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-adrian-waite-chartered-fcipd-flpi-69227aa/
Scott’s website: https://www.theinnovatecrowd.com
If you have ideas, thoughts, and insights around purpose, business and development then please email me to discuss being a guest on a future episode of ‘How Might We…? scott@theinnovatecrowd.com
Wednesday Jun 30, 2021
How Might We Make L&D More Attractive
Wednesday Jun 30, 2021
Wednesday Jun 30, 2021
In this episode my guest is John Hinchcliffe; John is an internationally recognised award-winning digital learning expert with over 12 years in the field. He is Head of Talent at Jam Pan, The #1 On-Demand Digital Learning Marketplace, which connects the right expert freelancers and agencies with your digital learning needs. He also is the founder of the Global Learning and Development Community and was shortlisted for Covid Champion at the LPI Learning Awards 2021 in recognition of his efforts to helping others in the industry during Covid.
We discuss the bad rep L&D has had for a long time, especially in the digital learning space. However, a lot of this was well deserved. John talks about his journey and how discovered how not to design. We then discuss how it can and has evolved and can continue to do so.
We touch on creating agile organisations, solving actual problems, and adaptive learning. What can L&D also learn from other disciplines to create better solutions that deliver?
03:12 Learning was never a passion to be an active experience – Learning has been a reactive thing for people
05:19 No-one was asking what was wrong
07:02 Attractive can mean so many things – results are attractive
08:31 What is the solution? Well, what is the problem?
10:03 The shift from defined roles to transferable skills – thinking about project/GIG based work
10:47 Working with what strengths/interests’ people already have – helping create agility
12:34 Adaptive learning in the workplace
14:08 L&D moving from the owner of learning to the curator of learning
15:10 Using data on platforms to gain insights
16:36 Using data analysis and marketing to improve L&D
20:46 Measuring and answering the ROI question
22:20 Answering the what’s in it for me question
25:22 Best principles, not best practices
27:43 Because it has become the norm
33:53 Why are we looking at one-off solutions?
35:12 Internal L&D CRM System
40:53 Onboarding and stress
43:29 L&D and creativity
45:53 L&D and customer experience
46:41 5 questions to ask in any design
49:35 We have gone full circle – time for a bit of a recap
The Global Learning and Development Network: GLDC https://www.mygldc.org
John’s LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-hinchliffe-yourskillshub/
Jam Pan: https://www.jam-pan.com
Scott’s Website: https://www.theinnovatecrowd.com
If you have stories, insights, and thoughts you would like to share, and be a guest on the podcast; drop me an email at scott@theinnovatecrowd.com to arrange a chat.
Tuesday Jun 01, 2021
How Might We Change behaviour
Tuesday Jun 01, 2021
Tuesday Jun 01, 2021
In this episode, my guest is Paul Matthews. 20 years after moving into L&D, Paul is a sought-after speaker on the international stage – not only for his undoubted knowledge but also for his engaging, story-led approach and his desire to make L&D ideas easy to understand. He also runs workshops and does consultancy for many blue-chip clients in the UK and beyond. He’s a regular speaker in L&D events in the UK and around the world, as well as writing for leading industry magazines and blogs. He is also a member of the CIPD’s L&D advisory board.
Paul and I talk about the importance of thinking about delivering behavioural change. And how this can be the golden thread through design that makes measurement of output easier. Paul talks about the levers to pull for learning transfer to happen and how we can design a learning workflow that creates the behavioural changes required.
01:07 The function of L&D is changing behaviour to ensure we get the performance we need
03:07 Taking our eye off the prize
04:43 It’s not learning needs analysis – it’s a behavioural needs analysis
06:07 And now we have a reasonable way of measuring
07:22 Generic leadership content – there needs to be a customised layer
08:37 Learning transfer is the key to behavioural change
10:31 Accountability and responsibility
12:18 The 12 levers of learning transfer
13:56 Performance consultancy
16:13 How do I deliver these behaviours to people
17:15 Does one-day training actually need three or four days?
20:13 Does learning happen without reflection?
20:49 The five layers of reflection
23:49 Let’s get the basics right
25:06b Workflow and behavioural change
32:29 Training and coaching is good, but what else can we do?
32:51 Governance, accountability and responsibility
36:11 The perception of L&D
41:58 Do leaders feel that L&D think too short term and transactional
Paul’s Website: https://paul-matthews.com/
Paul’s Workflow platform: https://peoplealchemy.com/
Scott’s Website: https://www.theinnovatecrowd.com/
If you have ideas, thoughts or insights that can help change the perception of learning. Please drop me an email to chat about being a guest on the podcast scott@theinnovatecrowd.com
Wednesday May 26, 2021
How Might We Not Waste Money on Training
Wednesday May 26, 2021
Wednesday May 26, 2021
In this episode, my guest is Krystyna Gadd.
Krystyna Gadd has been in the field of learning and development for over 30 years. She is a consummate professional with a passion for helping people perform better through learning. She is a member of the CIPD and has delivered professional CIPD L&D qualifications. She is also a fellow of the Learning and Performance Institute. She is also the author of 'How not to Waste Your Money on Training' - a practical and graphic 'how-to' guide with useful activities to complete.
A move into soft skills training in 2003 led Krystyna to research accelerated learning. She was particularly drawn to how learning could become more engaging as well as impactful. A frustration with the many models and theories within accelerated learning prompted her to create a signature system ‘Five Secrets of Accelerated Learning’, which simplifies all relevant theories and models for those curious about accelerating learning through their organisations.
Krystyna’s focus is always on achieving business results in a creative and inspiring way. Through Five Secrets, she helps people make this structured and simple. A curious mind drives her to seek new innovations and consider how the latest research can be applied. She is a pragmatist with a thirst for learning and sharing with others, with the ultimate aim to elevate the L&D profession. Finding the right data to inform good decision-making is a must in her eyes.
Krystyna and I talk about learning aligning training interventions to the organisational needs. We explore some ideas from Krystina’s experience. We identify how this can be an opportunity for L&D to help the organisation to develop strategy and facilitate these discussions.
We also cover the importance of analysis and being curious and collaborative to elevate L&D influence within the organisation.
02:56 How can we support achieving your goals
04:11 Being curious is vital for L&D
06:28 Krystyna explains the HIRE framework to conduct analysis
07:43 L&D is capable of so much more
09:43 Smiley sheets are great – but we actually had an impact
11:46 Look at training as a journey or process
12:03 The role of data
21:41 It’s a need analysis
23:57 L&D can have a strategic, consultative role
27:24 Broaden our area of looking at something
33:39 L&D will need to justify training – COVID was a catalyst
39:08 Can the line manager help?
41:15 Back to culture and curiosity
47:32 Influence and collaboration
50:46 How many ways can you learn?
57:59 Tips on writing clear objectives
Krystyna’s Website www.howtoacceleratelearning.co.uk
Scott’ Website https://www.theinnovatecrowd.com
If you have any thoughts, insights, and ideas about changing the perception of learning. Then ping me an email to discuss being a guest at scott@theinnovatecrowd.com
Wednesday May 05, 2021
How Might We Leverage Micro-Learning for Better Results
Wednesday May 05, 2021
Wednesday May 05, 2021
In this episode my guest is Kate Udilova, Kate is marketer turned L&D expert, business owner, and microlearning addict. Founder, CPO at 7taps.com
We discuss what is micro-learning and how it is everywhere. It is not a fad it is as old as the hills. We look at the application of micro-learning in the world of work and cooking etc and how it can be effective in delivering just-in-time solutions
Kate talks about the science and thinking behind the development of her micro-learning platform 7taps and how reducing barriers to learning was a big driver in the thinking behind it.
03:53 Kate sheds some light on the role of technology, has it changed the way we learn or is it somehow connected to micro-learning
06:53 Micro-learning and working memory capacity
08:45 How it can enhance every learning in moving knowledge to long term memory
11:23 It is not the one size fits all solutions – there are four key areas where it can benefit
13:09 Start with the desired business outcomes
14:39 Good learning is a blend of approaches
16:15 Removing the barriers and providing smoothest experience
21:32 The power of stories in learning
24:08 L&D and fads
25:09 Creating content in a way that people consume information voluntarily
31:30 Distilling it to the essence
34:18 Micro-learning is not the silver bullet
38:05 If it is the correct method, the choices are endless
Kate’s Website: https://www.7taps.com/
Connect with Kate on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/udalova/
Scott’ Website : https://www.theinnovatecrowd.com
If you have thoughts, ideas or insights that can help transform the perception of learning and would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch to have a chat. scott@theinnovatecrowd.com
Tuesday Apr 20, 2021
How Might We Prepare Participants to Learn
Tuesday Apr 20, 2021
Tuesday Apr 20, 2021
My guest is Mark Williams, Mark is the founder of GiraffePad, the learning platform designed to make it easy to transform any learning intervention into a full and impactful learning journey.
Mark has worked in L&D for over 20 years, the last 18 running his own training and coaching consultancy and is driven by a passion for learning that sticks. This is why he has spent the last 3 years developing GiraffePad to be the solution he wished he had for the previous 20.
We discuss the move from seeing learning as a discreet activity to seeing it as a journey. Mark shares thoughts and ideas on how to help get participants buzzing when they arrive at your session
Creating an environment where they are excited and ready to learn. How to maximise the impact of the time you have to create the most powerful outcomes.
One of the simplest, and powerful tips from Mark is to think about reimaging the concept of pre-work. By simply renaming it as module 1, and making it part of the learning programme will boost the chances of your participants turning up ready to learn.
01:26 COVID has created opportunities to help prepare people to learn
03:23 Stepping up their game in preparing people for the virtual event
04:09 Get the prep right, get the facilitation right, they are entwined
06:05 The analogy of learning and riding a bike
07:13 Learning and cognitive load
08:11 Started with a warm-up session
10:26 The value of building community is priceless
11:51 Mark shares a nugget about framing pre-work
13:16 Using pre-session to build psychological safety
14:57 We can widen our view of learning and come up with ideas to connect people in advance
17:33 Module 1, joining the dots
19:02 Would you turn up for a triathlon without training and doing some preparation
20:05 Getting the biggest bang for your buck
23:07 How would you like your session to start
24:58 Who is actually going on the programme
26:35 Using good metrics
29:20 Key stakeholders in learning
31:27 Everyone is responsible for learning, not just L&D
37:01 The quality of what has come before provides an expectation of what it will be like
41:59 We are not paying for the training, we are paying for the performance
43:41 Have we run out of spot analogies
44:12 Concussion and preparation
45:26 The different skills in L&D
46:06 Induction ideas
Mark’s website: https://www.giraffepad.com/
Follow mark on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markwilliamsgiraffepad
Scott’s website: https://www.theinnovatecrowd.com/
If you have ideas, thoughts, insights or a story that can help change the perception of learning I would love to hear from me. Email me at scott@theinnovate crowd to discuss being a future guest
Tuesday Apr 06, 2021
How Might We Play in L&D
Tuesday Apr 06, 2021
Tuesday Apr 06, 2021
My guest on this episode is Mo Ash, With a 6-year background experience in the BPO industry, business development, a managerial post in the UN, and finally a 14 years’ experience in the training field. Mohamed has come to condense and formulate all of his efforts and knowledge acquired to dedicate it to the field of empowerment and development in the form of training programs & applied workshops to further enhance the youth who are facing today's dynamic global race.Being a human development consultant has given Mohamed the chance to conduct sessions, workshops & seminars to over 50,000 trainees from different walks of life & business; starting from university students, juniors, seniors, middle management and even top management of governmental institutions and corporate.The ray of diversity has helped tremendously with further career excavation in the field of human development along with learning & development. As he is looking into starting a master's degree in business psychology to be able to profoundly blend between L&D, gamification & performance management in a tight cohesive productive meld.Mohamed currently is the founder of The Catalyst, an instructional design consultancy focused on the sole purpose of creating impeccable learning experience.
00:18 Mo explains his convoluted journey into L&D
03:45 L&D learning from other fields such as marketing, graphic design and project management
05:55 L&D to venture out of L&D and discover new tools
08:09 Borrowing perspectives, not borrowing tools
11:49 Helping reduce cognitive load
14:19 Exploring gamification
15:38 Gamification is not about the game, it is about the strategy
17:20 Systems and gamification
18:44 Gamification is a healthy learning experience with a layer of motivation that looks like a game
20:13 Games highlight so much of our human aspirations
23:18 Make the rules simple
25:14 User experience in learning
28:43 And now for some in depth explanation of the mechanics of gamification
32:51 The Octalysis framework
37:22 An example of e-learning gamification
40:56 Gamification of Socratic questioning
43:34 We start bouncing ideas to create a game on ethics
45:21 People bring their own level of complexity to the game
46:39 Good stories in gamification
Visit Mo’s website: www.thecatalystexprience.com
Visit Scott’s website: https://www.theinnovatecrowd.com
If you have ideas, insights or thoughts on an subjects related to changing the perception of learning; and would like to be a guest, drop me an email to have a chat scott@theinnovatecrowd.com
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