In this episode, my guest is Paul Matthews. 20 years after moving into L&D, Paul is a sought-after speaker on the international stage – not only for his undoubted knowledge but also for his engaging, story-led approach and his desire to make L&D ideas easy to understand. He also runs workshops and does consultancy for many blue-chip clients in the UK and beyond. He’s a regular speaker in L&D events in the UK and around the world, as well as writing for leading industry magazines and blogs. He is also a member of the CIPD’s L&D advisory board.


Paul and I talk about the importance of thinking about delivering behavioural change. And how this can be the golden thread through design that makes measurement of output easier. Paul talks about the levers to pull for learning transfer to happen and how we can design a learning workflow that creates the behavioural changes required.


  • 01:07 The function of L&D is changing behaviour to ensure we get the performance we need
  • 03:07 Taking our eye off the prize
  • 04:43 It’s not learning needs analysis – it’s a behavioural needs analysis
  • 06:07 And now we have a reasonable way of measuring
  • 07:22 Generic leadership content – there needs to be a customised layer
  • 08:37 Learning transfer is the key to behavioural change
  • 10:31 Accountability and responsibility
  • 12:18 The 12 levers of learning transfer
  • 13:56 Performance consultancy
  • 16:13 How do I deliver these behaviours to people
  • 17:15 Does one-day training actually need three or four days?
  • 20:13 Does learning happen without reflection?
  • 20:49 The five layers of reflection
  • 23:49 Let’s get the basics right
  • 25:06b Workflow and behavioural change
  • 32:29 Training and coaching is good, but what else can we do?
  • 32:51 Governance, accountability and responsibility
  • 36:11 The perception of L&D
  • 41:58 Do leaders feel that L&D think too short term and transactional



Paul’s Website:


Paul’s Workflow platform:


Scott’s Website:


If you have ideas, thoughts or insights that can help change the perception of learning. Please drop me an email to chat about being a guest on the podcast

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