How Might We...?

How Might We Increase Trust In What Businesses Say About Sustainability

On this episode we discuss How Might We Increase Trust In What Businesses Say About Sustainability. My guest is Hannah Keartland, Hannah helps bold purpose-led leaders build a sustainable business by showing where to start and what steps to take.
In this episode we discuss the rise of the sustainability agenda and the current lack of transparency and trust. Hannah brings some great thoughts and insights into focus and tips on how organisations can increase trust in their sustainability claims.
We’re at an exciting point in history. Some people are calling this ‘the sustainability revolution’. Markets are being shaken up – these are the times when great innovation happens! That can be scary. It’s also exciting. Your business needs to be resilient to the risks and grab hold of opportunities. I'll help you do that. I can help you go faster than you can on your own.
 
 
Hannah's LinkedIn : https://www.linkedin.com/in/hannahkeartland/
Hannah's Website : https://keartland.co/
B Corp Website : https://www.bcorporation.net/en-us/
ORB Website : https://www.orbuk.org.uk/
 
Transcript-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott: Hello, welcome to the latest edition of how might we, and on this episode, my guest is Anna Kirtland and we were talking about how might we increase trust in what businesses are saying about sustainability, which is an interesting subject and quite a topical because of what's happened recently. So, Hannah, would you like to introduce yourself, please?
Hannah: My Scott. Thank you. So I'm Hannah Kirtland. I help professional services, businesses know what steps to take to become more sustainable.
Scott: Okay.
Hannah: Short and concise. That's enough. That's enough
Scott: for an intro. This is me. That's it. Okay, so you talk about sustainability quite a lot and helping businesses be sustainable.
So why is it important to think that we, that, that the topic you talked about is about how do we trust them? What businesses say about sustainability?
Hannah: I think that there has been so much greenwashing that I think [00:01:00] we know that the public want to make sustainable choices. We're seeing increasing evidence of that.
But the moment it can be really hard for them to make those choices because without a huge amount of research, because there's so many businesses have been saying, here's my green, this my eco that we're going to be net zero by this stage, or this is a net zero product. And actually, if you start scratching beneath the surface, you can discover that there were loads of caveats.
And that makes it really hard to know which products and services out there genuinely. Helping the planet. There's also, there's a big difference between a product that's less bad than the competitors and one that's genuinely good. And there are very few products out there, but a genuine Nygard. And just because something is a little bit less bad than the competitor doesn't mean that it's the right thing that you should be buying.
So we need to be able to trust businesses because we can't. There are people out there who will do lots [00:02:00] of research into everything that they're buying, but most people don't have the time or the inclination or the knowledge to be able to keep doing research. You can't be walking down the supermarket with your phone out, checking every single claim and every single brand and every single product.
So we need to be able to trust what businesses are saying to us. Imagine if we, we knew were going around Tesco and we know that Tesco is screened all of its suppliers and is only stocking products that are. Created sustainably packaged sort of sustainably not causing deforestation et cetera, et cetera.
If we knew that we could walk around the supermarket trusting Tesco, knowing that we don't have to then think about that, but we are making sustainable consumption choices. But at the moment, we're in a stage where there are, there are the vast majority of brands. You cannot trust what they're saying. You need to be digging under the surface because there's no consistency around what net zero means or what, what people actually companies [00:03:00] actually mean when they're saying something is sustainable.
Scott: So, and that's an interesting thing, cause I do think we're actually in a crisis of trust in a lot of areas about how we communicate and what we say. But it's interesting that we talk about sustainability and you hear this word and this, the language around it, that zero and everything else. But if we don't have a consistent understanding of what that means.
Does that give organizations and to a degree, I suppose, governments some leeway in claiming how compliant they are with something, because there is no set standard or a acceptable what this actually means
Hannah: at the moment. Yes. And certainly historically, yes, that's changing. So there's more and more regulation coming in.
And since January, this year, we've had the green claims code in the UK, which has come in and we still that's all about businesses making environmental claims. So we saw only in the press, it was last week. They've had one of their adverts pulled because the [00:04:00] claims that they were making were not seem to be backed up by the right level of data.
So we are going to see more of that. So we've now got green claims code is a really interesting thing at the moment, keeping a watch out to sort of see whether it has. Which businesses get pulled up on that. But there that provides a lot more regulation around what businesses can and can't say, and their, their marketing and what claims they can make.
And if, for example, can you have a picture of a car driving against a nice wooded green background? Does that subconsciously give the consumer the impression that this car is good for the planet? You know, therefore is that not allowed anymore? These are all sort of questions that are being debated at the moment.
I think it will be really interesting. And then in terms of net zero transition plans, in terms of the financials, there is much more regulation coming down the line. Now that will start to give us more consistency and compatibility, but we're not there yet. Which means that one company's net zero can be totally different to another company's net [00:05:00] zero it's only when you start digging into their reports, into their website, into all the detail that.
I can understand exactly what it is they're talking about. And the reality is we can't expect people to do that.
Scott: No, it's interesting. You say that. So I think there's an opportunity for organizations. So if they could jump ahead before the, before they forced to, and actually have that transparency and say, this is what we're doing this, and we're working and that's what it is.
Then there's a potential opportunity for them to have that sort of jump on the competition when it arises.
Hannah: Yeah. I think it's really interesting. So at the moment, there are a lot of businesses making voluntary disclosures, and then there are equally lots of businesses that are waiting to be waiting for it, to be mandatory and to do what they're told to do.
I think it'd be interesting to see the way the market perceives that. So if you get ahead of the curve, You start disclosing being more transparent, being really honest about what it is you're doing, the impact that you're [00:06:00] having before you have to, does that start to build trust within your consumer base?
So I saw a really nice social media post yesterday from Tony's chocolate, Tony, and they were talking about the percentage of child labor in their supply chain. And they were then really honest. They said, you know, this is the amount, this is the percentage amount of child labor that we have within our supply chain.
And actually, you know, compare that then with the chocolate industry at large, the percentage they would have, the reason we have got this amount within our supply chain is cause we expanded supply over the last year. We've taken on some new suppliers we have now worked with them to understand where there is child labor.
We are now working with them to eliminate that over the next year. So we will bring that percentage back down to zero. But they were being totally transparent that there is child labor in their supply chain. And that, that is an issue throughout the chocolate production industry. And they are, this is what they are now doing.
This is their target that they're trying to get to. This is the timeline they've [00:07:00] given themselves. This is the, this is the plan. They weren't trying to hide it. And that for me as a consumer, that builds trust because they're not trying to gloss over an issue. They're not trying to make out that they are perfect.
They're educating me at the same time, but they're the fact that they're sort of demonstrating that vulnerability makes me trust them more. They don't have to tell me that they didn't have to put out a social media post telling me that, but they did. And they, therefore, I trust them more because I know they do more than they have.
Scott: And I think that's an interesting point is around trust is I know what you have to do. And if you go that extra mile, I say voluntarily, build that, buy more trust with consumers. And I think sometimes that fear is what stops people, because if they have to start reporting this and have to lift the lid on their supply chains, they're going to go, we don't know what we're going to find, and it could be absolutely horrendous.
And then what are we
Hannah: going to do? [00:08:00] And the supply chain is such an interesting part of this because most businesses, even if they're manufacturers, most businesses, the vast majority of their carbon emissions are what's called scope three. So either within their supply chains or in the way their products are used and then disposed of by consumers and that's really hard to calculate, but we have to, because we can't just ignore that because then you're ignoring the full impact of the business.
But at the moment there isn't consistency around how people are measuring that and disclosing it and creating plans around it. So yesterday there was a report that came out an annual report called the corporate climate responsibility monitor and it was critiquing and ultimately criticizing a lot of large businesses zero plans.
And they had a question in there that is what has really stuck with me from that report, which essentially said, if everybody did what you're doing, then would we reach net zero? [00:09:00] Which I really liked because they were talking about the fact that businesses will they'll try and fudge the issue by maybe putting the most carbon intensive pieces of equipment that they own into a subsidiary.
And then not including that subsidiary within their reporting, or you might have. Remove those most polluting activities from your own supply chain, we, your own operations and then work with the supplier in another part of the world. So all of a sudden that's within your supply chain, it's not within your business, so not report on it.
And so they're externalizing the most polluting parts of their business. And the reality is if everyone did that and sort of fudge Dave written, he didn't and brushed it under the carpet, then we're not going to reach net zero. It's something for me, it was about, we need to stand back and look at the whole system and, and be really honest about how do we all need to behave in order to be [00:10:00]responsible businesses.
If we are going to together, do what we need to do. And the reality is if we all behave like that and sort of fudge it over and brush it under the carpet and on honest about what's actually going on and what the size of the problem is, we need to tackle that. We're not going to achieve what we need to do, but equally we're going to undermine trust in the whole system.
Scott: I mean, it's interesting to see that some of the clients around the motor industry and stuff we're already from, so it's bleeds you. I may well be wrong, but it was just something I read. I think it was one of the large car companies saying, oh, we're going to be fully electric or hybrid by some not 2030 or something.
And I thought, well, you're going to have to be there. You can't actually sell you. Won't be able to sell a petrol or diesel car pretty much in Europe, possibly. I don't know about the rules in America, but a huge chunk of your [00:11:00] market will disappear from you with these cars. So it's not, and it's not a big fanfare thing.
I think for them to announce, this is what we're going to do is you're going to have to do that because that's the new laws that are coming out with. You've got no choice. If you want to operate in that marketplace, there is not. And it's interesting. I was on a previous call podcast talking to a guy called guy, and he talks about generation generation said coming in.
And obviously there can be much more prevalent in sort of the numbers over the coming years. And he said, now their attitude is they can really, they can sniff through marketing BS and being sustainable will not be a badge of honor, but be expected.
Hannah: Yeah. And I think they'll ask tougher questions. And so in terms of the figures, so millennial and gen Z are going to be 72% of the workforce by the end of the decade.
And when they're inside, they're asking tougher questions already within the interview process. But equally [00:12:00] once they're inside a business, they're not, they're not just sitting there. Putting up with it. They're going to be activists within the business. They're expecting they're expecting a totally different way of doing business.
And I think that's, that's one of the things that is going to actually make businesses sit up and respond because they, they need people to work for them. And if you can't attract the best people, you are not going to remain competitive. And it's much harder. I think, to hide things from the people who are working with you every single day than it is from your consumers.
Scott: Well, I decided to consumers is that most people don't know who owns block. You've got a brand and you say, I'll buy this and it, but the same company owns both of them. Do they? Yeah. They rebranded, marketed, whatever it is. Cause they they're just pitched at different levels. So our understanding of the complexities of big, especially big businesses we've got no idea.
Where did that money go? How do they do it? And how these things work. So what [00:13:00] about, what's the opportunities then? So if you think about like the medium sized business or the business going into that sort of area, because quite often, like these reports and we talk about the global companies and I think sometimes that gives an opportunity for smaller businesses who are potentially more agile, but also can have that story and connect to their audience quicker and better than larger organizations.
Hannah: I think there's two different elements to it. There's the process element. And then there's the human element. And I think they're both really important. So from a sort of process, point of view, it's really important that they, they know the numbers. So they've got a really clear idea of what does the state, what does sustainability mean to them and how do they measure up against that at the moment?
And then where do they actually want to get to? And what does good look like in terms of really specific measurable targets and how do those pan out over a period of title? So it's not just saying we want to get to this point in [00:14:00] 30 years time, it's saying this is where we're aiming for in five years, 10 years, 15 years.
So they're mapping out that journey. They've got numbers against it that they can then be held accountable to and they could talk about, and then they've got a really clear plan for how are they going to hit all of those different numbers. And that, that plan is then available to the public so everybody can see it.
Everybody can interrogate it. It's all kind of complete. And in one place, you're not going to dig around the website in lots of different pieces to kind of piece it all together. It's got to be easy to understand. It's got to be really clear. What's in scope, what's out of scope how you're going to measure all of those metrics.
So that you've got those, you know, these are the assumptions we're making. This is the methodology we're using so that there's no fudging around at all. These are the numbers, this is what we're going to do. Put it out there, completely transparent, completely open so that there's, anybody could come along and then measure and get the [00:15:00] same result.
So like you would get with your set of accounts, but because there isn't the same rigor at the moment around all of this, as there is around a set of accounts, it's about being really transparent about these are the, this is the way we're measuring it. This is the plan we've got. And then it's about, as you go on that journey things, aren't going to work out exactly how you thought they were going to work out, but being completely transparent about that, continuing to report on it, continuing to measure, as you said, you would, and then go back out and say, okay, we said, we were going to get to this point by the end of this year, we haven't actually, we've missed it by this amount.
This is why we've missed it by this amount. This is what we've learned. This is what we're doing to get back on track. Not trying to budget, they admit mistakes, they share learnings. They recognize that this is a journey that it's really complicated, that nobody knows the answers. They don't pretend to be perfect because nobody's perfect.
None of us know how to do this and that sort of humidity and vulnerability and [00:16:00] honesty. They're okay with that rather than trying to present this perfect image
Scott: I got. So it goes back to that fear of failure. Doesn't it. And trusting that, you know what we are in my experience, if something goes wrong with a company, with a person or an individual, whatever it is, if somebody actually else ends up saying, I'm really sorry, I made a mistake, but generally quite forgiving that people were saying, okay, that makes sense.
I can understand what you're doing. And as I said, that authenticity and what they're saying, as you say, and this is why this is what we're planning to do about it. This is where we're moving in the future. Yeah, I believe that's the way forward. If that's where you want to go as a business. Cause you'll never attract people who want to get involved in that because you're totally open and transparent.
So a quote, I can't even begin who said it. I love quotes. I can never remember who tells me where I read them from a very few stick, like the names he said there's a war on talent and talent one. So the war [00:17:00] on talent is talent, talent as well. We're in this case of the world changing so fast and the skills necessary to move companies forward.
And then there's the gen ed and the millennials coming into the workplace and working in. And then I suppose having more senior positions in organizations as well, may help in that transition to that more transparent reporting obsess.
Hannah: And I think the reality is while the external context has changed.
So a lot of people who are maybe close to retirement now earlier on in their career, It was just more stable, whereas it, it just isn't anymore. It's, we're in a very rapidly changing external environment and therefore we need to manage and lead in very different ways. And so that, and it's, it's complex and you have to do tests in there and you have to experiment, you can't create a strategy and then deliver it because [00:18:00] you don't know what's going to happen when the strategy hits the market.
And actually as the market then evolves and you suddenly have COVID or a massive new technology comes online, there's a banking collapse or whatever it is, these things are happening and you have to respond to those, the strategy we're not in a stable marketplace. And so it comes back to that vulnerability piece again, I think, you know, especially in terms of environmental sustainability claims.
Nobody knows how to do this. Nobody's done it. You know, there are some businesses that are far more advanced, but you know, it was that interface have done brilliant knee in the world of carpet manufacturing. Well, unless you're a carpet manufacturer that operates in exactly the same places, you can't copy what they did, you can learn from it.
But all of us are going to be sort of muddling through trying to work it out as we go along and testing stuff out, seeing what works and what doesn't work. And that [00:19:00] requires a very different sort of leadership to the maybe more command and control leadership that might have been okay. 20, 30 years ago.
Scott: Okay. So to build trust, we need to change the way we lead it to say that except we are going to make mistakes. And it's about the opportunity to learn from those.
Hannah: I think so. Because I don't think any of us are going to get this right. But I think having the humility to go out and recognize that this is a journey.
So for example, speaking to lots of businesses that have become B Corp's the thing that they consistently say is it's a journey. It's not about getting the, you know, going through the process, ticking the boxes, getting the certification, sticking it on your website. It's about a journey. And actually now we've started on the journey.
We suddenly see how much more we need to do. And the journey of now we've got the certification. The journey is only just beginning [00:20:00] and transparency is a huge part of the B Corp. But I think that's really interesting, you know, and I'm finding, you know, the more, you know, I've been working in sustainability for years, but less so in environmental sustainability.
And the more I learn, the more I realize that I don't know. And I, you know, I. I think that humidity is really important because we've got to collaborate on this. We've got to pull in other people who are experts because none of us can be experts in absolutely everything. It's such a sort of complex ever-evolving space.
It's about collaboration, experimenting learning, which is a very different type of leadership to knowing exactly what you have to do and then implementing it.
Scott: Okay. And just to, for those who might not know, can you explain what B Corp is?
Hannah: Yes. So it is a certification that a business can get that, so shows that they are signed up to a sort of better way of doing [00:21:00] business, that they adhere to various principles in terms of environmental principles in terms of How they engage with their community in terms of how they treat their staff in terms of their governance.
And you can apply for certification and you go through quite a rigorous audit process. And if you become a B Corp, then you're some part of that wider community. And you can say that you're a B Corp on you know, on your recruitment materials, on your multiple materials. And that, that can really help to engage a certain type of consumer or a certain type of employee.
Scott: Okay. So that could be some ways that organizations say, how can I help prove, will build trust in I'm doing the right things. I know I am, I'm trying. And instead of just saying, I'm doing it like, cause I I'm certified that these are the principles of which I'm following. So that could be a way that certain organizations can demonstrate that sort of, and to build that.
Hannah: Yeah. And even if, if people weren't ready to sort of commit to that [00:22:00] journey, they've got an assessment that you can do for free the B impact assessment. You can go into their website, access that for free, and it goes through all of the questions you'd have to answer. And already that can start to give you an idea of where you might have gaps, what you might want to work on.
So that can be quite if you're doing that kind of baseline measurement of where are we, what might we want to improve? That can be quite a nice place to start. And you could still even talk about that. You don't have to be going through the whole process, but even sharing that you've gone through that questionnaire.
You've used it as a way of identifying opportunities to improve sharing that with your employees could be hugely powerful.
Scott: So that could actually open people's eyes and just say, cause sustainability, if you talk about what is sustainability and all this jargon, that's around it because it seems wherever we do something, we create a whole new language around stuff, and it's not an area or a field I work in.
I would say, what's the difference between net zero and carbon and this and that? I don't know. So if they use something like the B-Corp and say, this [00:23:00] will give us an idea of what good could look like, all the areas we could look at to sort of embrace the sustainable approach to business.
Hannah: Yes and no.
So B Corp is,
is one set of measurements and one way of looking at a business if you want to look at sustainability in its broadest sense, then why I think one of the best places to start is the sustainable development goals developed by the UN. There are 17 of those and they are pretty comprehensive in terms of all the different things that might fall under sustainability.
So you've got things in there around equality, diversity biodiversity water. Climate and carbon. Whew. How, how does industry work? We've got huge range of different things that could fall under the sort of broad title of sustainability. And one of the ways that I would always start with the businesses to sort of have a really honest conversation with the leadership to say, [00:24:00] what do you actually want to achieve?
So at the moment, a lot of the talk and a lot of the regulation is around net zero net zero. And that's where a lot of businesses are feeling pressure at the moment to remove to reduce that impact in terms of greenhouse gas emissions. That may be all they want to work on at the moment in terms of sustainability.
And that's okay, but let's admit that up front also to have a really honest conversation around why are you doing this? Are you doing this because you want to tick a box and you want to be compliant, or are you doing this before? You genuinely think it's the right business thing to do, or are you doing this because you want to have a much broader impact beyond making a profit and you want it to be genuinely integrating impact into your entire business and operating model.
Let's be really honest about that up front, because that's going to impact your entire approach because if actually it's about being compliant, we're not going to [00:25:00] push this as far as we might, if you want to transform your whole business model and genuinely try and tackle some of those big, sustainable development goals.
And I think that that level of honesty upfront is really helpful as well. That's why,
Scott: as I put it, the scope is narrow. So it's, this is what we're actually doing it for. And then once we understand that and we, if we say to people we're doing it because we have. And I don't think many businesses will actually put that in the literature.
Probably not. We are compliant. Give it, give us a clap. Is it? No, I don't think so. You're doing over and beyond, but what they see in the vision of what they're working towards. Cause we talk about that, that we mission and vision of organization is, and they could do it. So they could actually do that around that sustainability thing as, as where do they see themselves as contributing to this, this area of business or society?
And where does that? Cause I was working with a company in America. I was fortunate to be invited along to help co-facilitate some work and they're very much around their sustainability. They see about one how they do business with their people, but also how they connect to the community. [00:26:00]Yeah. And that was the two parts of them.
It was about how we treat our people and, and how we, how we pay back to the communities in which we are. And they, they put an awful lot of emphasis around those two aspects of their business.
Hannah: Yeah. I mean, going back to what you said about B-corps, there are two big aspects of B Corp. There are questions around those and to become a B Corp, you don't have to tick every single box.
And it may be that there will be businesses that focus much more on their people in their community, but maybe don't score so well on environment. That doesn't mean that they won't become a B Corp. It might mean that there are gaps there, and that's an area they want to work on afterwards. But with all of this, I think there, there is something about businesses recognizing upfront, where they want their focus to be, because we can't all do everything.
We can't all be tackling all of those 17 sustainable development goals. It's about having an honest conversation about what sort of business do we want to be, where do we want our focus to be? And then building a plan around that [00:27:00]
Scott: because there's something called the organization for responsible business in the UK, which is aimed at SMEs, who haven't got the sort of the budget to look at.
Some of those things just to give them guidance about, okay, these are the things to. There is a rent. So cause again, a lot of people might think, well, is that response? Is that something for me? And I do believe like I run my company from a spare room, cause obviously a lot, what I can do is mobile and virtual, but you still take some of those responsibilities.
Like where do I get my stuff from? How do I, how do I dispose of stuff I don't use anymore? How do I engage with my stakeholders and the people I work with in a, in a more ethical way. I still think there's principles of sustainability can be applied across from a business of one person. So we just say these big multinationals that were in the news the other day, the report that you mentioned, Australia enough, I sent you, I sent you an email about it just as you were sending me an email about it.
So I was in there. It was quicker because obviously my big focus is on trust and about how we build trust and relationships with people. [00:28:00] Yours is more around sustainability and trust in a very clear aspect. So, if you were to say to a company you want to build sustainability, you want to build trust.
What sort of tips would you give them? I know we've sort of covered some what sort of things you think would be interesting for them to look at?
Hannah: I'm worried I'm going to end up repeating myself, but I, I think they need data. So there's so much, if you look at you start sort of focusing in on what businesses are saying about sustainability. So much of it is generalizations and wishy-washy being really specific and having the data that starts to build trust as it to say, okay, we're in a drill down into your data, you know?
Okay, we've got these emissions, but what are they actually coming from? What are the different activities that we're doing? Where are they, where are those emissions coming from? Break it down really granular and say, This is how we're going to tackle each of those. These are the targets in each of those areas, and we [00:29:00] will report back to you in a year and show you the impact we've had.
So you're not hiding it in generalizations, but you're, you're getting into the sort of hard data, which, and reporting in a consistent way that really, really helps. So data on all of this is really important and being really consistent on what your assumptions and methodologies are, and being really transparent about what those are.
Some of the, no, this is more for larger businesses, but some of the best ones will be then sharing that data in a downloadable format so that other people can take it away and interrogate it and do their own testing on it. So a lot of this is slightly different, but a lot of the sort of leaders in the fashion space, you can now download a database of all of them.
Factories where their clothes are produced. You can download that from their website and then you can interrogate that, so that, that can then [00:30:00] be run through various systems. You know, if you've got reporting of human rights issues in factories, in Southeast Asia, that can be run against that report.
And you can find out which of the businesses that are setting garments made in those factories. So it's that sort of transparency and that data and that granularity is really key, but equally in the way you communicate that data, making it understandable to the general public. So you were talking about jock and there is so much jargon in this space.
So how do you make sure that you communicate it in a way that people can understand? So, yes, it needs to be consistent. It needs to have data, but don't try and kind of bamboozle them and hide it. Jargon and complexity because it's very easy with sustainability to get very technical very quickly. And so there's a huge role for communications people here in terms of how do you communicate it in a really accessible way.
[00:31:00] So that's all the data bit and having a really clear plan, what you're going to do against it. And then it's, then it's this honesty. It's, it's being transparent with people about what have you done? What's worked what hasn't worked, what are you going to do next? How are you going to make that doable? Why, why do you think that's realistic?
Because there's equally there's, there's plans out there at the moment where you couldn't look at it and think, how are they actually going to make that happen? Is that actually realistic? And so it's putting something out there that. The peop the general public can look at and say, yes, I understand that.
And I actually think that is genuinely achievable, but equally something that's ambitious. So not doing what you said in terms of promising that you're going to phase out producing petrol and diesel cars when that's something you've legally got to do. But how are you going to push yourself further?
Another thing, which is a whole minefield in itself is around offsetting. So if you've got carbon emissions all you becoming net [00:32:00] zero by just paying to offset all of those, or are you becoming a zero because you are fundamentally changing your business and driving down your emissions. And that's an area which I think we're going to get much more scrutiny off because you know, if you're planting trees, but then the trees don't start capturing carbon for 20 years, but equally the whole forest might burn down.
Then it's. Just a bit of a fudge and, and there are better ways of doing carbon offsetting and there are less good ways of doing it, but it's, I mean, an example, we haven't talked about BrewDog yet. I thought they might have come up earlier,
Scott: but that was another issue.
Hannah: I mean, there there's a lot of contention there lost forest up in Scotland where they haven't actually planted any trees yet when they do plant the trees, it's going to take a while for them to actually be doing anything useful.
And even the plans to develop the forest, I've got loads of questions around them in terms of how are they actually going to do it in a, in a way that is [00:33:00] best for carbon capture for biodiversity, et cetera, et cetera. They bring in experts who know how to actually do this properly. And so then the question, I mean, obviously looking at that in parallel with everything else, that's come coming out about BrewDog and all the stuff that hasn't come out yet.
Is it just a marketing tool? Are they just doing that? Like so many of the other things that appear to have just been marketing to. Is that loss for us, just a marketing tool and it then undermines the whole, the whole piece.
Scott: I mean, I think you can say there is another example of an organization that says every time they sign up a new customer, they're going to plant a tree and they may well plant a tree and they unbelieve.
They do. And I think there is that you can see in the marketing, there is a shift in marketing towards at being attractive to people who are concerned about sustainability and the, and the planet. So you've got, I definitely think in marketing, you can actually see this sort of shift from more consumers driven.
So, or that sustainability approach again, is how much would that impact on an organization? The [00:34:00] sales, I think, I think it's utility warehouse. So every new customer, they will plant a tree.
Hannah: Th there are calculations that have been done as to how many trees we would have to plant. We can't plant enough trees to deal with the amount of carbon we're pumping out. Like there's just not enough space in the world to do that. And then it
Scott: will be better for them to say, what we're doing is every day we signed people up, then we should, they report how much of their energy renewable, how much of their energy comes from gas, how much energy that they sell to us.
And I don't know if that's doable because of that thing, but again, that's about that transparency, isn't it? And it could be that we aim to so big company, can they invest in renewable energies, sources, and bits and pieces, or give people instead of planting a tree that might cost 50 quid? Are they going to say, right?
You can get a discount on making your house more, use less energy, which if they sell energy, that might not be a good plan because it might reduce that. But there again, it's that [00:35:00] there are just, as you say, there's so many different ways to approach this. I think sometimes th th th the tree thing seems to be flavored with.
Hannah: But I think what you've said there is really interesting around would they want to help people reduce their energy bill, because actually what they're doing is sending energy. And that is one of the biggest challenges of this whole thing is that yep. There are huge opportunities for businesses to do really well.
There are huge opportunities for whole new business areas. Equally. There are business models that are not going to do so well in the you know, when we moved to a more sustainable world businesses are going to have to innovate. They're going to have to change and there will be service lines that will not be able to exist in the way that they have.
And so you have businesses that are grappling with things like, well, actually what we do is we sell energy. So why would we want to help people reduce their energy? And yet a company such as octopus. They have been [00:36:00] running a campaign for the last month or so helping giving tips and helping a lot of their customers to reduce their winter gas usage by X percent, giving them tips every week, doing competitions who can, you know, who can reduce their gas bill the most versus their normal usage.
And so that, to me, that then builds up my trust in octopus because actually it's not all about them and just making a profit and Patagonia at the same where they, they do a lot of marketing, which is saying, you know, do not buy our products, you know, mend them or recycled them. And they recognize that they're part of the problem.
And they are then trying to tackle that and that they're transparent about it. And they basically say everything you buy in terms of clothing is bad. We can't pretend that there is not a good thing to buy everything you buy is bad. We'd rather you bought something that was going to last and that you then mend it.
And then when it's finished, you [00:37:00] can send it back to us and we will recycle it, make it part of the circular economy. But this is one of those things that we have to grapple with. And we have to come up with new business models because because it doesn't, it doesn't there. Isn't a neat answer to all of these questions.
And there are things that companies didn't have to strategically grapple with and work out well, how we can operate differently. How does our business model need to change in order for us to remain competitive? But when you then get a business like Patagonia, like octopus that do something that looks like from a financial point of view, it's the wrong decision.
That to me, that massively builds my trust in them because what they're doing is totally aligned with what they're saying around. Sustainability.
Scott: And I think that's, I mean, I talk about trust and you talk about the owner state, which is, which is so important, but it's the consistency, the consistency in actions and the message that they both S they, they, they, they just support each other or the way that every decision because the [00:38:00]businesses, how does this feed into our sustainability?
How does this feed into our messaging? Is it a good decision to make? And I think management asking those questions, leaders and organizations may change some of their decisions based on that. And a simple thing to look at is look at someone like BrewDog, and they set themselves up on these high values and principles, and then we're going to change the industry, et cetera, et cetera.
And they've gone through the mill over the last year. It's been about a year of drip feeding, negative content stuff that come out in Fairplay. The guy runs through dogs come out, so they'll have to learn more. But then the next thing came and I said, I have to learn more. And I have to learn more now that, that apology and I'll have to learn more is only going to take them so far until people want to see.
Changes that are tangible to the general public. I think Facebook is another example of how many times did they apologize for what they do, how they do, how they operate as a business ethically. And then saying, yes, we've learned we've made mistakes. We've made mistakes, but you need to do something different so slightly off topic there, but still ish is about that trust.
And the sustainable model [00:39:00] is we have, I don't think
Hannah: it is off topic though, because I think they're examples as well. So I mean, Coke is an example where they've come out and made a set targets around reducing plastic waste and there's big bold claims. And then they haven't got anywhere near to them. And so they sort of moved the goalposts.
There's not a, and then they start talking about something else from a sustainability point of view, rather than I think really leaning into it and owning it and recognizing the problem is. It starts to feel that like a marketing thing, rather than a goodness, we genuinely recognize this is a massive problem.
And we are part of it. We need to be part of the solution which is an organization like Patagonia, the, all of the work that they've done within the fashion [00:40:00] industry and collaborating with competitors to really try and change. The whole industry shows much greater leadership than I think we see with Coke.
Scott: Another thing. And also interesting enough. No, we talked about the energy. It was an octopus. You said, if you think about it, what they actually might be doing is creating a more sustainable business in the way that energy prices in the UK have gone through the roof. So what's the chances of some of their customers down not being able to afford energy and therefore they can't shut them off.
So that puts a strain on their income. Whereas if they can get people to reduce their energy bills, less customers are actually. Default, therefore they might be securing a cashflow better by doing so they do two things, one secure classified, but also as you say, massively build trust because they're saying, you know, we're helping you and helping you pay, and there's the cost of living crisis and we're doing our part to help you.
We're supplying one of the products, especially at very much more expensive. It used to be, and we can help you reduce your need for it. [00:41:00]
Hannah: And then also, I mean, I think in that industry, there is such a lack of trust in the big oil and gas giants, octopus will capture market share. And so their growth will come that way rather than through each, you know overcharging each individual customer.
They can reduce the bill at each one, but they will then attract more and more of them.
Scott: So, yeah. So although it sounds counter-intuitive, as you think about it as a longer-term strategy, it's probably we're positioning ourselves and we are doing enough to create metrics. At the beginning, we talked about this opportunities exist in this crisis of trust.
I think there is in there in institutions and big business there. I think there's a massive crisis of trust and there's enough stories. You can talk about BrewDog. We talk about, say what Koch said and Coca-Cola, you can tell whether the report that came out yesterday, we can talk about VW diesel game. We can talk about the financial crash of 2009.
And some of the actions company's been taken to court and found guilty of all [00:42:00] sorts of things they shouldn't be doing. And it's just littered of big corporate breaches of that trust. And I think there is there opportunities for somebody to stand up and just say, do something that's stands out so much that you will be you're in a space.
You're talking about these companies and I'm talking about them. So they get in free public. Because we're saying, we're basically saying we support what they do. Look at this. Great. Isn't it? What they're doing is fantastic. And they may not even be customer, not be customers of theirs, but we're going to be talking about them in a positive way.
Hannah: I think what you said there that was really relevant is around it being long-term because sustainability in its broadest sense, it means doing something that means that you can continue for the long term. And there is a financial element of that. So it's about sustainable in terms of the environment.
So you're not kind of messing things up for future generations. So you're operating in a way [00:43:00]that you can keep going forever and ever, and ever it's sustainable in terms of people. So in terms of the relationships you've got, whether those are with your employees, whether they're with your suppliers, whether you're with the community, with your consumers, you are engaging with them in a way that they will want to continue to engage with you for the long-term.
And that trust comes into that passively. And then you've got to be financially sustainable because if you've not got a business model that's financially sustainable and you're not making enough profit that you can be investing in innovation and then reinventing the business, then you're not going to be here for the long term.
So sustainability is about that long-term piece across people and planet and profit, and too often businesses. Aren't thinking about all three of those, you know, whether that's the environment and operating in a way that's not learning long-term sustainable for the environment, but [00:44:00]equally people, there are so many examples of businesses acting in a very short term as way, and burning bridges and damaging trust, and that is going to harm their brand and their reputation and their ability to be here in the long-term.
Whereas these businesses that we've been talking about are playing a much longer term.
Scott: I can never get the word rights. So please it's been stress ambidextrous. So ambidextrous, so business ambidextrous, falsity. Is that a word?
Hannah: Oh goodness. Which is
Scott: about, yeah, we've got a business model that can operate today, but also be sustainable for the future. And is that about having, having your eye on both?
Hannah: Yeah. And that's, that's what we talk about a lot in the innovation space in terms of having an ambidextrous business model. So you've got sort of dual strategy. You've got the business today, but you're always got an eye on the future and reinventing yourself [00:45:00] and spotting what the next opportunity is.
And it's not all focused on the here and the now,
Scott: because I think you've talked about something that's interesting, the game back, and some of you said about how we change it. Please correct me if I'm wrong at the moment, organizations have got a responsibility to do well for their shareholders, I believe.
And it's sooner than they're going to change it. They've got to do well for all stakeholders.
Hannah: There's an old at the moment that they already do have that responsibility. But there is there is a campaign going on at the moment for the better business act to officially change it in law. So section 1 72, if the company's act changed that so that there is an official responsibility to all stakeholders
Scott: and that would, that could force a total change in focus of organizations.
Hannah: Yes, because they would be legally. So if it's applied, it would be applied retrospectively toward existing companies. So every single [00:46:00] company overnight with suddenly have a responsibility to all stakeholders, not just to their shareholders.
Scott: Which is probably the next legal argument that would come from that. And it would definitely broaden our thing about impact. Because obviously I work in lot of the space of people I've worked with as is that leadership role about it was about how do we treat people in the workplace and build that trust.
And it's not. So my sustainability, although they say I'm in the field, I'm more about that people sustainability and the sort of thinking about that side of it, but it's not hug a tree.
Hannah: You know, I think this is really hard to tree anymore, to be honest.
Scott: But I think there isn't a lot, not, this is all about hugging softly, softly, and be nice to people who are fluffy, fluffy, but we're hard business people.
But I think as you said, well, sustainability is about creating a business that is sustainable.
Hannah: The reality is as well as the more and more that we learned about climate change, but businesses are [00:47:00] not going to be able to operate in the sorts of scenarios that we might be looking at. So suddenly that makes it onto a risk look like that's, you know, we're in proper business territory. This is like, this is a risk that you're going to need to suddenly start looking at your financials and devaluing assets on the balance sheet and putting in massive provisions or finding ourselves in a world where it's uninsurable or your insurance premiums are sky high, but that we're talking, we're not talking tree hugging, then we're talking proper business numbers you know, supply chains that decimated because of floods or fires or displaced people, or, you know, whatever it is.
You know, those are sort of cold-hearted business conversations and we
Scott: just need to have a look at where the supply chains are at the moment and what we've happened and the impact of the, sort of the impact that's having on business models, how we operate. And are we going to be moving from that just in time scenario to a more localized business model?
Is that sustainable in the future? So I think there are some [00:48:00] really hard questions for companies to.
Hannah: And I think that's the challenge with all of this is they're hard questions. It's really difficult. There aren't clear answers and it comes back to that vulnerability piece. Again, of leaders being comfortable to say, I don't know the answer.
I'm working with my team around me. We're all, you know, I need a multidisciplinary team. We'll come up with the best possible thing that we think we need to do next. It might not work, but if it doesn't work, we'll then work out what we're going to do afterwards. But they're not pretending that they've got all the answers and they're going to be perfect.
And they're okay with that. And they're okay with being completely transparent about that
Scott: humble inquiry, the book in which you are reading, I do breathe. That is, I think one of the greatest untapped untapped resources with organizations is what's between the ears of its staff.
Hannah: It just takes such a completely.[00:49:00]
They talk about in humble inquiry within they're coming at it from the perspective of the U S culture. But the UK culture is not a million miles away from that. The culture has defined how we are within business and this need to be right or wrong, black or white. That makes it very, very hard to do a lot of this stuff because it's not in bred within our culture to not know the answers, to make mistakes, to then stand up and say, you've made a mistake.
And we're seeing that we do not want to go to politics, but you know, we see that within, we see that within politics. Don't we get this inability to stand up and say, I'm really sorry. I messed up.
Scott: Well, I think, and maybe go into that. But I think also the, the I don't think the media helps because they tried to set politicians up and then say, oh, you said this you've had a U-turn and they do a big thing about it and make a commitment for the next five years.
So we're asking politicians to make commitments when really actually in reality is nigh on impossible to [00:50:00] make those. But I, I'm definitely not going to, but I mean, it's, it's an interesting place for both of us to watch because of what we say about the sustainability and that transparency and that sort of trust and having it and looking at how politicians are leading and saying, well, they're not setting a great example.
So again, I was talking to Jeff Hudson. So, and when he says is that there was such a distrust, there was a trust research that goes on every few years. I can remember the company. He does it again, knowing something, but not knowing the resource. So I do apologize. And the level of trust in the big institution.
Is seriously been eroded and COVID, hasn't helped that that's even worse. So people are now expecting businesses to step up and fill that trust void.
Hannah: So the Edelman, the Edelman trust barometer,
Scott: and that's what missing there's businesses that people are actually saying to businesses, please step up and fill this gap that exists in our trust because we [00:51:00] want to believe in what people are telling us.
Hannah: Yeah. No, and I think the businesses are going to play a huge part in all of this. I think so
you're right. That people are saying that they expect businesses to play a big role in terms of sustainability tackling climate change, et cetera. I also think from what I'm hearing that that's, we need that when we can't sit here and wait for. Everyone's got a role to play and businesses are going to play a huge role and therefore we need to be able to trust what they're doing or there's something I, so I get, cause I notice it comes back to that Tesco example.
The beginning, if we want to achieve mass behavior change, we need to make it really easy for people. We need it to be the default option. So if you're, I don't know, you're investing your pension. It default goes into a sustainable investment fund, which it doesn't at the moment. If you are [00:52:00] buying food in the supermarket, it defaults to sustainable options, et cetera, et cetera.
And so you have to make a conscious decision to want to make the non-sustainable choice. Whereas at the moment, the sustainable choice is not the default, the vast majority of the time. Whereas if we want to achieve mass behavior change in the whole population, we've got to make the default. The sustainable choice, because most, but you can't expect the vast majority of people to be doing all the research and the thinking or paying premiums, et cetera.
And that's where business comes in because businesses are the ones who have the ability to decide what the default options are most of the time, because they're the ones who were selling the products and the services.
Scott: And they're also very good at influencing buyer behavior.
Hannah: Yes, exactly. But if they could influence it in the right way, then that's how we, I think we will achieve mass behavior change, whereas trying to change millions of people's behavior.
Billions, if you look worldwide, that's very hard. Whereas actually there are far fewer [00:53:00]companies if we change companies' behavior. And actually one of the things I think we're going to see is that the procurement policies of the NHS and other public sector organizations have big corporates, they are starting to change.
And if they start demanding of their suppliers, But they have to change as well, and they need to hit certain sustainability targets, certain standards, and that their suppliers need to, it's going to, that's going to trickle all around the world that I think is going to be one of the things that's going to be one of the biggest drivers of all of this.
Scott: Well, that's interesting, but how we choose. So it's talking to somebody a while back about sustainability. He said, and he was talking about ESG and it was talking about the same things you would at the beginning about that lack of clear understanding of what this actually looks like, how do we measure it?
What are the metrics we can use? Whereas we've got accountancy, we know those rules. That's how we calculate. That's the figure. And if you look at it, you can pretty much work out what it looks like. But one of the things that you said in this can be driven by investors [00:54:00] and purchases. So it's basically where does the money come from from businesses?
And if the money is much more driven towards that choice about how we're choosing to invest. So go to the investment companies and say, why you invest in this? And they changed their ethos about who and how they invest them. Look at angel investors and saying, do you know what? I'm not, I don't want a company that's going to become a unicorn.
So it's not about, don't give me a strategy about how you're gonna grow in sell. Give me a strategy about how you're going to grow to sustain. Then I'll invest in you. Then that changes the whole ethos about how we set companies up, because that's the only way we're going to attract the money to build what we want.
Hannah: And we are starting to see shifts. So there's more and more funding funds that are screening for what's called ESG environmental, social, and governance. We're seeing more and more in the procurement space. So I'm speaking to an increasing number of people who are saying that they're being asked about this within their tenders, the NHS in a few years time, every single [00:55:00]organization that works with them will have to have a sustainability plan and we'll have to be regularly reporting progress against that.
And that includes, you know, one person coaches working with the NHS is going to be absolutely. And that's just, that's going to, I think that's going to have a big domino effect. Wait,
Scott: who doesn't supply to the NHS of somebody who supplies the end. I mean, they're enormous organization now, if they actually then, and I think this could be a good an area where there could then become some sort of understanding and standardization of what sustainable it looks like.
Cause they would have, they might say, what's your sustainability plan. And they might then put against key areas, which will then drive that sort of, okay, this is what it's going to start to look like. And it gives us sort of standardization of language
Hannah: and there is, I mean, there's a lot more regulation coming down the line as well.
So there, you know, there are, there is a lot of work I got on there. So I think it will all be happening in parallel because it's partly driven by the investor community. They [00:56:00] need to be able to compare apples with apples and at the moment they can't see. There's. I mean, there's some new financial regulations that are coming on in just a couple of months, time for large companies in the UK, so that there is more and more of this coming down the line.
I think it's all going to be happening in parallel. What we can't have, we haven't got the time for is to be waiting for government and regulation to change. And then everybody else following in line it's it needs to be a bit of a sort of messy transition where we're all doing bits and bobs in parallel.
And we need to be comfortable with that messiness, which I think again, we're not always comfortable with, and it has to be a messy transition rather than a really neat ordered one because otherwise that's going to take far too long.
Scott: I don't think I've had a seismic change in anything has been orderly
if you look back on it. So when, when we changed, when we changed industries and Wednesday, but that's normally been forced by technological advancements or stuff people have had to, this [00:57:00]is a choice, isn't it about. There's a, there's a change is necessary, but we can't see, it's not driven by the here and now we're still by the short term, ism is driven by what is coming down the line and we're getting to the point of no return, which people kind of know, but there's a, and I think about people's behaviors and motivations who was sitting and go well, what's coming is probably known the impact is not a hundred percent known, but it's a long-term in the future.
Whereas I make decisions now the impact is going to hit me now and be impacting to me now. And it could be positive and it could be positive, a possible negative.
Hannah: And that's the whole bias thing. Isn't it around.
Scott: And it's about how we, how, how do we then have a community? How do we commute? I think I wrote in a blog is I, how do we communicate the impact of or what we're trying to do within this in a way that's going to map into that type of understanding of what motivates behavior, rather than we all kind of know we've got.
It's like, you might say somebody, I kind of know I'm overweight and I know it needs. And when I'm in my sixties and [00:58:00] seventies, that will impact on my health potentially, but that knowledge very rarely will change my behavior today.
Hannah: I think it's, I think it's going to be a mix of there's going to be drivers.
There's going to be things forcing it. You know, whether that's the war on talent, whether that is the regulations changing, whether that's your investors or your customers telling you need to change. So there's all those kinds of push factors forcing you. I also think there are a huge number of opportunities.
So we're going to be creating various people say, you know, this is one of the biggest opportunities for the economy that we've seen in ages. It's going to be whole new sectors, developing whole new needs for skill. I mean, if you go out now and you know, there's lots of free training available on this, you can upskill yourself and you could probably go and get a job they're recruiting like crazy into this sector.
There's jobs being advertised every day. And there's not enough people to fill them. So probably you can get into a job without being as qualified as you might need [00:59:00] to be in other sectors. And it's a hugely growing area. So there's, there's a lot of opportunities for businesses to create whole new products and services that are meeting this need.
And it's about seeing those and recognizing where your assets and capabilities can deliver new streams of value rather than hanging on to what you're doing now. But that again takes a type of leadership that is willing to make that shift and willing to is that Ambetter ambidextrous organization?
Yes. You've got the business model. Now that's paying the bills, but what's it going to look like in 10 years time, if you're in a fast fashion business, that's not likely to exist in 10 years time. So how do you take your assets and your capabilities to do something completely different, but which will have huge amounts of value in a zero
Scott: carbon.
And I think there are, let's say there's some industries that are going to be absolutely decile. The industry model, the fashions. One of them may be transportation, how that operates and functions like logistics, [01:00:00] automobiles, definitely because of what's happening. I think not just the R and D in about how we're changing, how we look at transportation and how we transport ourselves.
And even the business models. If you think about cars, their business model is built on. They don't make a lot of money in selling a car. They make a lot of money in servicing and looking after a car because they basically inherently go wrong. Cause there's so many moving parts, so many less moving parts in electric vehicles.
So the whole thing's about servicing and all that, that, that type of industry what's going to happen to that you think, well, that's in trouble, but then you say, well, what skills we got knowledge of cars. And third, could we then turn into, as you say, what do we know and where, where can that skill sets or that knowledge we have, or that capabilities capacities?
How can that service this, these new potential. Interesting questions for companies to ask themselves. I think Margaret weeklies said the question is isn't your glass half full or half empty it's what's in your glass who needs it and how can you get it to them?[01:01:00]
Hannah: And that's where the long-term thinking comes in.
Scott: And you can say that to people we are transitioning from, yes, we're involved in this and we are transitioning to this area. Again, it comes back to that honesty and that trust and believe in what these companies are actually telling us and doing it because there is such an opportunity for them.
Cause we have this crisis and these opportunities for them. And if they were just honest, it would be nice. Wouldn't it? So as a kind of, as I said, that's not a bad wrap up really? Is it, is there anything we'd like to finish with them as a result? How can we increase the businesses?
Hannah: I think, I think you sort of wrapped it up there.
I think we've talked about, I think we've talked.
Scott: Okay. Well, I'd just like to say thank you very much for your time. It's been an absolute pleasure. It's been nice to get you on here. I've been asking you for bags is quite nice for you to actually come up. Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts and your ideas around it, and [01:02:00] all the details for you will be in the comments below.
So thank you very much.
Hannah:
Thanks Scott. You're welcome

How Might We Become Aware to Help Others

In the latest episode of How Might We, I am joined by Mark Hammond. Mark is the owner of Connectivity Consulting, and he specialises in enabling highly effective teams by transforming how those teams behave.His passion is for enabling a team and their leader. His experience is that by transforming the behaviour of teams, shifting the entire dynamic, I can embed a change in culture and performance. He achieve this by doing things differently. His approach is powerful, as are your outcomes.
Mark LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-hammond-a0103714/
Marks Website: https://connectivityconsulting.co.uk
 
Transcription:
Scott: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to the latest edition of how might we, we're going to be unusual this time. We, we're not going to decide on the title until the end. So it's going to be quite an unstructured chat around things of purpose, vulnerability, and leadership. So on this episode, my guest is mark hammer. Good morning, mark, would you like to introduce
Mark: yourself by Scorpio?
Mark Hammons and I am. This podcast with Scott after having met him. And we just connected and had a really good conversation share quite a bit have a lot in common and I agreed to come on and talk a little bit more. Me I'm I run my own business it's called connectivity consulting and I focus on helping people change.
Pretty much similar to what Scott does. I work with teams mostly in that evolved after 25 years in corporate. But I, I tend to [00:01:00] focus on really helping people to shift their awareness within a team and then help that team to shift. And that includes the leader. And I linked that to sorta things like sustainability purpose And innovation, it's sort of a process, so it's not very linear.
And I've I've had to learn, be open to a whole lot of learning in that process. So yeah, Scott and I got talking about some stuff and so here I am. So it's been It's been interesting just to come out, come on and just find something to talk about. And but it makes sure it has meaning and purpose and some focus.
So that's a little bit about nameless. You feel you'd like a little bit more Scott, but this there's plenty of me on, on my website and LinkedIn, and I thought maybe could use this time to talk about some good stuff.
Scott: Okay. We could, obviously we can we'll put your your links to your website and stuff on the, on the page.
So people are more than welcome to do so. Yeah. So you talked about change, changing and working predominantly with teams, but obviously the important thing is you said it's about the leaders to change within that team as well. So and the adaptability before we came online use the word vulnerability, [00:02:00] which has definitely been sort of gaining a lot of traction sort of on things on LinkedIn and sort of people talking in, in the sort of personal development, leadership field about talking about vulnerability.
So what do you think vulnerability is?
Mark: So, this is just my personal view. I think it's, it's many things. And when you, when you start looking at something like vulnerability, it would be easy and comfortable to categorize it as, as a thing. But if there's anything that I've learned in working with different teams and different people, it's many different things for many different people.
But broadly, I mean, probably the best. The best sort of approach I've heard or unread of is, is that by Brandon Brown and a couple of other people that she's spoken to. So for me, you know, for me personally, I think vulnerability is, is when you're willing to take a risk with something that you, you have that that's going to make you feel.
But you [00:03:00] that as you put yourself out in that space, you can notice a physical reaction. You may notice a cognitive or mental reaction to that. But it it's something that might make you feel a little uncomfortable in whatever your comfort zone. I, I'm not going to curve from. You know, putting your trust in somebody that you haven't done before, it could be raising a difficult topic.
It could be challenging somebody on something. So it's many different things, but it tends to have an emotional response or an emotion. A very strong theme of strong is the right word, but it tends to come with an emotional component. So for me, it's when I start to feel uncomfortable and noticing the things that I do to distance myself from being uncomfortable.
That's when I started to pay attention. So it brings with it a number of things. So there's a, there's a strong emotional component to it. And I, I sort of broadly categorize it as when you start to feel uncomfortable. And it tends to have quite a bit to do with trust. But again, it's not, it's not exclusive to trust. So yeah, it's Brenda Brown's definition, I'm going to see if I can pull it up briefly so we can [00:04:00] have a, I can be a little bit more specific. Cause I was just running through my mind. What is, what's the best way to define it?
So ground Brenda Brown, I think in a book from 2016, says the emotion and the experience during times of risk uncertainty and emotional exposure. And I love that one. There's a more technical one, which is from Maya luffa and Robinson, I think from 2007. More research-based vulnerabilities manifest in a willingness to be honest and open to learning by accepting our own fallibility and thus taking responsibility for one's own actions, be more responsive to others and sharing responsibility.
So in answer to the question, probably somewhere in, in amongst those two.
Scott: Okay. So, I mean, I quite like the thing about that, being that vulnerability about taking responsibility. For ourselves and then saying, this may be uncomfortable for me, but I'm going to have to do it, but I understand where I am and what I can do within that space.[00:05:00]
So was it the muscling somewhere versus the, you've got your comfort zone sometimes in, outside the comfort zone, that's where the magic happens. And it's about this it's uncomfortable at times.
Mark: Yeah. And I saw playing just a little bit on the weekend with my daughter. She was, she's doing a diving. So springboard diving course.
And it came from jumping off a pier somewhere in Croatia while back, and she loved it, enjoyed it. And so she decided to take up a diving course. And so she was in the springboard and they had asked the class to go up to the sort of three meter and then right to the very top one. And she said, you know, I've done.
I was, and she's 12. So she said to me, I was feeling really nervous and anxious about it and scan of it. And I said, so what did you do? She said, well, I didn't want to look bad in front of the rest of the class. And I also knew that I could do it cause I've done it before, maybe not as high, but I felt quite anxious and uncomfortable with it.
And I said, so, and what happened when you did it? And she said, well, I felt a lot better and was a little nervous going down. But she said, I felt a lot better when I did it. Cause I knew I could do [00:06:00] it. And I said, yep. And to your point, Scott right there. And once you take that step into the, into what we perceive as the unknown and potentially the uncomfortable and potentially some of the risks we might perceive that comes with it.
Sometimes, I mean, granted not always, but sometimes there's a sense of relief afterwards of actually it wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. That's what my daughter said to me. She said, I got out of Wharton and I looked at him and went, I can do that. And so to your point and learning unfolds and, and something beautiful starts to happen and I don't shy away from those words.
The learning, the learning that starts to take place as we take a step forward, as we make the choice, as we start to connect with those decisions, as we start to connect with how we feel about stuff that there's, there's some real purpose in there, and there's a whole level of learning that comes with that.
And that's, that's not sort of, make-believe soft and fluffy. It's probably life giving a little tap on the shoulder going, come on. I think maybe we we, we, we need to take a couple of steps down here. I ain't gonna force you. But [00:07:00] he has a choice and then we make the choice. We make the choice to either shy away or engage with it or play with it or think about it or circle back.
Or my sense is life. My experiences life always come back and use it. Broadly. Life, life comes back gently. When, when you, when you when you least expected and gives you a tap on the shoulder and says, okay, come on on, stay in your comfort zone all the time. So,
Scott: I used to work with somebody and he had a great saying.
He said everyday every day,
Mark: Yes.
Scott: Every day is a school David, so it'd be willing. And there's another one I liked. I mean, I love my quotes. I can't remember as this. I mean like a lesson, something that happens to you and experiences the lesson, doing something different is a learning.
And I think that goes back to what you say is that we, we have these experiences in life, whatever they may be. And what do we do with that knowledge, that new experience that we've gotten? How could we then use that to move ourselves forward in such a way? And I liked strengths. I, I think we've talked before about the, the Clifton strengths.
Yes. So I'm one, I'm a coach for them. And the interesting thing is it's [00:08:00] accepting that yes, you are stronger at something, but there's areas that maybe you're not, and it's not about trying to take time to work on our weaknesses, but it's basically how can we leverage what we're good at?
To overcome our challenges. So instead of spending our time trying to develop, so I'm not an organized person, I'm not a dude. I'm not a sort of a, somebody pushes things forward. I'm much more about give me some ideas, do it play around with things, and then I'll say, well, I can't do that sort of stuff very well.
So there's no point in giving me to do lists, to do lists, state, to do, to do lists. They don't ever get to done lists, kind of just stay there. It's not worth what works for me, but sitting there going, okay, once I've done this, I can then move on to something exciting, understanding that how I work helps me manage that, that better so I can adapt my workflow to my strengths and what I like.
So I think that comes back to what you're saying about that vulnerability as well. And just saying this isn't a strength of mine. That is, but then again, it's about how, the way they leverage their strengths to overcome the challenges of.[00:09:00]
Mark: The vulnerabilities, that is a great teacher. And it shows up in many ways. I mean, let's, let's put it out there, love loss across the whole gamut of life. So, you know,
it's, it's many different things for many different people, but so One way of, of vulnerability becoming becoming real for people is, is there's a technique I I'll use with time with teams at a certain point in their, in their process and then their journey and then the work that they're doing together.
And that's very much engages the individual, but you know, for me, the, the piece around working with the team. That the individual is, is getting it from, it's not getting it. Sorry, is, is, is experiencing something for themselves, but also themselves in a team environment. So they are seeing how they how they impact and influence the team.
So as they shift and change the feedback, the context from right there in front of them, that's a [00:10:00] very rich piece to work with. And you were talking about your preferences and your styles. So whilst vulnerability is something that we not always comfortable with. It doesn't always have to be something which is sort of deeply personal.
So there's many techniques. So telling a personal story and sharing deeply I I've heard some CEOs and board members and executive teams speak really deeply and personally about And love and loss and their journey through life where you could hear a pin drop in the room because it was so powerful.
And they had been working with people for 10 to 15 years. We had no idea, no idea, but yet when they connected with these people in this way, the thing that started a nudge was was people really started to connect and listen. And appreciate and understand so that they're sort of use the word broadly, but the Hemi humanity and the, the connection with the loss of the connection with the joy.
I mean like a simple, simple thing, but like a wedding in a wedding is a time of great joy sometimes. And you could see the room lights [00:11:00] up on them. And they were talking about getting married to the person that I loved. And, and then a little later in the story, there was something around where they lost a loved one.
And you could see people go with them on that journey so that they connected very deeply. So it's, it's like you were just talking to it's many different things from, for each of us, so it can be a personal story or it could be simply putting a difficult issue on the table. So, what do you want to talk about?
How is this issue getting in the way for you? So it doesn't necessarily mean need people to show up with. With the past, but there's another way of getting them to come into the room where it has a real context and allows them to be a little bit more present with it because they have a view and slowly allow them to experience coming into talking about something, which might be quite meaningful, but they don't feel like they can.
And it goes back to that different, that vulnerability issue that we were talking to. So it's, it's fascinating to see this, this [00:12:00] process unfold because one of the things I was thinking was it, it is a process. And as, as we, as people go through the process, it's taught me a lot, but I can't assume what the, what the journey is for other people.
I can see the outcomes, but I see, I see people becoming aware. I see people in sung to experience and notice different things like acknowledging different things for themselves. Like for example, a leader would goes. I'm just, I'm giving too many solutions and I need to keep quiet because when I keep quiet, I see, I see a completely.
Piece unfold or merge or whatever word you want to use, but I see something shift and change. So when I remove my input and I create a space, something else emerges, other people start to talk and I get to learn something. I get to learn something which is you know, John has an idea or mark has an idea, or Scott has an idea where his thoughts or views, or I get to see that there's possibly too much silence or I get to see that.[00:13:00]
One person's talking too much other than me or. Actually there's a whole range of views and perspectives that when I keep on giving mine, I miss. So that vulnerability shows up in terms of quite simply saying, I need, I need to stop talking. I maybe need to stop giving the solutions. It can be that pragmatic in a way.
But it's not always easy to do, cause that might surface feelings of lack of control or not, not adding the value that people might ascribe to a role or that they feel they have to do. And as they let go of some of those pieces and to become aware of that, that there are feelings of vulnerability that might emerge And so it starts to unfold and you were talking about tasks, give me a task list and I'm going to get tasked.
I ain't going to get done. We've learned that, you
Scott: know, you may have yeah. Repeated behavior and saying guys has gotta be, there's gotta be a better way of doing this. But it's interesting. Cause we were again talking before the role of leaders in organizations changing and this isn't, I think it was applicable for [00:14:00] whether you're a small business or a large business either way.
Yeah. My personal view now is, is, is, is much more about who you are as a person rather than the role that you play. I think some of that perception is the leader has all the answers and the manager. So some would be, should go to for the answers is changing. I think COVID has been a catalyst for some of those changes that were already happening.
Yeah. And the different ways we work as it may be required a different way of doing it.
What's your thoughts on that?
Mark: Yeah. Again, it's, it's quite a it's a big area. So let me take a few little pieces from that, which, which possibly be the sort of joined up link, but
I think COVID you you're spot on. I think COVID has has, has provided something for people, which is context. It's a shared context. We've all been through it. Okay. So analogy would be whilst we were all on the same ocean, we might be in different boats rowing, but we've all been through. COVID being the ocean and the way we we've all had to experience it.
And we've expensive, many [00:15:00] different ways. I've got friends and families who've lost, loved ones as a result of it or lost their jobs or so it's had an impact. And that experience that, that understanding that awareness, that knowledge is not limited to leaders anymore. In fact, it's, it's opened up. A whole range of insights to everybody.
So leaders, I think are not just title and role anymore, as you were talking to. We are now all in the position where we, we've got to think about how we move forward and how we engage and talk to each other because there is no going back to the past. People might want that and strive for it, but too much has changed.
Know though the, the absolute meshing together molding together of working and home. That's just transformed everything. I think we were chatting about this when we first started talking and what that's done. I've had ladies say to me, I just do not want to get on a plane anymore. I've seen my daughters.
I've seen my children. I've seen my sons grow and I've seen them changes as young [00:16:00]people and. I don't want to miss that anymore. And yet other people feel like they just want to get back to the security of the pasta and get back into the office and all that comes with that. But so much has changed. I don't think it's ever necessarily going to be the same experience again.
So it's it's whilst people are yearning for that in the way. It may, it may have a similar, similar structure, but it may not have the same feeling or emotions or, or, or experience that comes with it. So, yeah. It's so it drives for me it's it's. Created something where people can go and say it in team meeting, hang on.
I actually need to be working from home and because of a, B and C I'm for leaders to turn and shut that down and not enable that conversation. And there are some who we're still doing that. I mean, there's been calls for you. Absolutely. You have to get back in the office. And in a way that's been imposed.
Now, if you start imposing something, when people have awareness that it's different, [00:17:00]there's going to be a response and there's going to be a reaction. And that's invariably resistance and resistance shows up in many ways. And what we're seeing is the great what are they calling it? Where people at the great resignation where people are living.
So the, my sense is we have experienced something which has given us A different focus, a different purpose. If we're choosing technology and become aware of it. So leaders in that space, it's not tackling and roll anymore. It is two degree because people in leadership positions still need to sign off budgets.
They still need to sign off decisions that those practical elements, but it's the emphasis I think, has shifted onto leaders. The spotlight is on them. You have the kind of self-awareness to have the presence of mind, to learn how to be authentic, to learn how to be present, because those are the skills they're going to help them to connect with people and have those conversations where they can navigate some of the stuff that's out there that wasn't typically in the workspace or, or seen as soft and fluffy, or were [00:18:00] seen as the domain of HR.
It's not anymore. And those are broad categorizations. It's everybody. So leaders really do need to figure out how they're going to show up as people, because the glaringly obvious point now is, is if you can have those conversations, you're going to be at a disadvantage. And that that comes from building your awareness, building your self awareness, learning how to have those conversations, learning how to connect with people.
So, so there's points of connection become far more. Of of of flow both ways. It's not a N it's not anymore a single one way direction. It might be perceived that still exists. But I think the the reality is the person who's being told you can't, as a board example, you can't work from home anymore.
You have to be in the office that person's going to. I just don't agree with that. And they may not articulate it. They may just go inside. I just don't agree with that. And it could be any kind of scenario. I just don't agree with that. I've seen it [00:19:00] working and I'm going to, I'm going to go find something else.
So in business that comes to the cost comes in a cost on time, a customer capability, culture, all of these things. And that's, that's the other piece that has really rapidly emerged is. As you, as you as leadership is changing the awareness of how it has a significant impact on effectiveness, effective behaviors, culture, how people are willing to trust you, how people are willing to show up and give you the ideas. Those leaders we've figured that out and how that, how they can, how they can really step into that authentically.
They have a distinct, competitive advantage as both as an individual, as a leader. In the team and for the organization. So, yeah, I agree with you. Leadership is just it's it's it's, it's not a, it's not a, sort of a right here's leadership. It's getting from a, to B. It is exponentially shifting and changing.
And we're seeing a lot of those, those w we're seeing that play out [00:20:00] globally and local. In how leaders don't really show up and address the issue on the table. I'm so sorry. You can just say on, I've been rattling on, you got me thinking. So I
Scott: think he's good. I like thinking it reminds me of the Stephen Covey quote not the one who wrote the seven habits of highly effective leaders, but his, his son who wrote speed of trust.
And it is that he calls it a trust dividend or a trust tax. So if you've got high trust, Then businesses easier and cheaper, quicker and cheaper. If you've got low trust businesses, slower and more expensive for the various reasons that you've identified. If, if somebody doesn't trust what you're doing or that breakdown to come to, you have to come back to the office and be like, well, I've been working from home for 18 months and why do I need to come back to the office?
And then there's that potential resistance, as you say, can manifest itself in multiple ways, but generally it's going to have a negative impact on how they do. Hmm, which is going to cost the organization in time or money
Mark: or both,[00:21:00]
and then mutation brand, you know, there's all these, there's all these different pieces that start to play out. But you you're spot on. I love that, that that trust piece that you've just mentioned, because that is in the work that I do with my clients and the it becomes very evident very quickly, whether there's trust there.
And it's not a, it's not a sort of a. Cognitive or way mental mental arithmetic of we trust each other because we've known each other for 15 years. Okay. Let's, let's introduce a little bit of conflict and see what happens. And that's one test of, of real trust is if it's tenure based or it's actually based on people making themselves vulnerable to each other, you know, to, to Brown's quote of the emotion that we experienced during times of risk, when they start to make themselves vulnerable to each other.
And it, and it is maybe asking some tough questions. And in uncertainty and that real test trust gets formed when people start to listen and acknowledge each other. I mean, I work with teams where they don't even acknowledge each other's perspectives. That seems to be this technique where people have [00:22:00] adopted where they just talk over each other.
So there's something introduced somebody talks and never get acknowledged. I never quite get heard. There's never a questioning of what they said. And in a constructive, insightful sort of curious way, something just gets layered on top of. And that's considered productive. That's considered effective broadly.
And then people wonder why this there's so much chaos in this. And it comes down to this, this, when you have trust, you actually get real listening, real hearing, real acknowledgement. Oh, so that's what you meant. Oh, and I appreciate that. You also lost somebody. So this might be playing. Is that playing?
Yeah, it is playing out for me as well. I feel like I'm going to make my space safe because I've lost somebody and I'm really feeling nervous and anxious at the moment. Okay. I get it. I get it. It's a lovely video that Renee brown from brown Brenae brown does about empathy, where there's a bear standing next to a, another small animal and they sharing the pain of loss and and [00:23:00] and the, the basically they, they sh they tell the story of, of their pain and another animal comes in and it's available in nutrients to remember, it'll come to me.
And there's absolutely no compassion or empathy displayed. And the, the other person comes in, let's call it a person comes and goes, you want a sandwich versus going, I get that. You guys are talking about something which is really painful and difficult. And, and I can see that you really in this I mean, I'm, I'm happy to share because I've been in a similar position versus trying to.
Avoided number two, et cetera. So there's absolutely something in how we've got to connect with each other in a different way. And this trust component you talk to is so vital. And yet we, we, there seems to be so much assumption around. We have trust and yet it plays out in so many ways. When it's not there, I I'm almost would go so far to say that people use it broadly.
But when I work with. It's something I really focus [00:24:00] on. And I don't know if it's because people are feeling very vulnerable with it or they forgotten about how to do it, or they don't know how to do it. Or there's so much information about them, about how they should be
learning, how to trust people, particularly in a team environment. It seems to be at times it seems to be quite a revelation. Because the other piece here is, is if you want to get through conflict, trust is what's going to get you through it. And we were talking about vulnerability and how it unfolds and how the lessons come to you when you, when you, when you go on this journey and trust is exactly the same way because they all connected and they all do the same.
They all sort of broadly sort of connect and then take you on a journey. And I appreciate it. I'm not courting any ref, any religion or any research, but just from what I've noticed is when is when people start trusting each other in team. The then got to clear some of the interpersonal stuff, but then they can start having [00:25:00] those conversations, which are really meaningful and really powerful because they've really learned to trust each other.
They can then introduce the topic issues, which then she being avoided and. And it doesn't mean that it has to get aggressive or loud, but it, where, where people have learned to listen and hear and let go of some of their pieces and make themselves vulnerable in that space, man, things start to happen.
And we were talking earlier about how, how those lessons start to emerge and it leads to progression. It leads to people sort of moving through their stuff that was sort of six years out, slight exaggeration start that sort of like a year out for businesses and small teams. And small organizations at their Stripe and get to, if they sit down and have the right conversations with each other, I see this back in corporate teams, those issues suddenly accelerating and come onto the table.
And innovation starts to merge because people are willing to trust who put the ideas on. Well, what about, what about this? What do you mean by that? I I've never thought of that. And there's [00:26:00] this piece in here, which I think is really interesting because it makes me think of this. And we start getting sparking is what I call.
So you get this, get this organic innovation, just simply from people learning how to listen and trust and connect differently, but there's work to be done in this space because it's not always something people find easy. It makes them feel vulnerable, I think. And so they may shy, shy away from it, but as you would, you're talking to so, so powerfully earlier, You know, when you step into this and you start pushing a little bit, what comes, what, what is given back?
I think as part of taking that risk, what has given back is that the process shows you it's not all that bad and actually there's a huge amount of benefit that can, that can come from an auto, I mean, deep. Better understanding, feeling heard, feeling listened to learning how to listen, learning how to acknowledge finding out the best shed and common purpose that healthy conflict is actually really important.
And that conflict can be a positive thing. A healthy conflict is where [00:27:00] you stay connected in a disagreement rather than what typically happens is you break apart. So as I'm talking, I'm just thinking, okay, how do I evidence a little bit more around? What is, what are the benefits of being vulnerable in building.
And really doing that. So hopefully that's, that's done to come through cause it's, it needs to be more tangible, I think for people and the tangibility comes from practicing it and walking in it.
Scott: Yeah. There's something you said that sparks something on me, but then I don't think it's appropriate. No, when you hear something you think, oh, that's interesting, but then you say something else.
That's interesting. So the stuff that was interesting before I said, I'm not going to build on that now because it's not, the moment is not there and I forgot it was, but it's definitely around what you're saying. And around that trust and. We have an assumption of that. We trust people because we work with somebody for however many years and we know each other, but the question is, do you trust them?
And it's not linear. It's not a yes or no black or white, because you might trust somebody with your car keys, but you don't trust them to finish the project on time. You might trust them to finish the [00:28:00] project, but you don't trust them with some information about yourself because you think they're going to gossip so that I don't feel safe giving you that information because it's going to go somewhere on that one.
And I can't remember the guy's name, so apologies for whoever wrote this, but one of the best definitions of trust I've ever seen is where you are willing to give something to somebody that may harm you. So the question I would ask anybody, and again, looking at what trust is, is trust associates and it's perception as well.
So it is fluid and it's a perception and it's subjective. Is to say, what are you doing today that demonstrates you are worthy of somebodies trust? I think if we flip it around and say, that's what trust is, I've got to be worthy of. You've got to be, feel safe to share something with me. So what am I going to do to demonstrate that that's okay to do what am I going to do today?
And every day. Cause it's that consistency as well. And as you say, it's about, okay, I'll listen to your ideas. I won't shut you down. I'll if you tell me something, [00:29:00] I'll get. When I'm talking with my opinions, they're based on something, or I just say, this is just my, from my experience, this is what I think, but at least your quality qualifying.
So you're not just throwing stuff out there. And I think importantly mean what you say and say what you mean.
Mark: Yeah. There's a, there's something in it for me, which I think comes back to awareness. And I'm struck by when I'm working with teams is where people just seem to talk. And talk and talk and they don't seem to realize that they've been talking for five or 10 minutes and people around them have just gone.
Quiet. Here we go again. So I'll use myself as an example. Okay. Mark has been going on now for 10 minutes and watching teams with people. People just go quiet and then sort of get completely disconnected. So that there's something in this trust and vulnerability piece, which is, is it linked to awareness that, that there's something about how you've got to give this to yourself, [00:30:00]acknowledge it for yourself created within yourself, which is such an integral part of everything we talking to now that that lesson starts within us.
So that awareness starts within us giving ourselves a little bit of trust, giving ourselves a little bit of vulnerability. Is the catalyst for being able to see it in other people and see it more broadly in teams or, or, or understand how it's going to work. And until we've given that for ourselves.
So for ourselves it's all a little theoretical now, again, it happens in many ways. So but I, I watch as people who have. I'll use the example I've just spoken and spoken and spoken, and it has no relevance to what, what people were actually on. And they've completely disrupted the conversation, taking them off in a completely different direction.
No, one's really quite sure what it is. So it's in those moments that I, that I, I encourage people just to pause and stop and. [00:31:00] And I have to do that quite delicately because it can be quite a shock to him to be told. Just take a, just pause, take a breath. Think about what you need to say, because you've been speaking for the last 10 minutes.
So as, as I have, as I hold that space for an individual, I feel vulnerable because I don't know how they're going to react. I don't know what's going to happen, but I have to trust myself. I have to trust myself that there's a process playing RTI that I've seen before, and I've got to trust that. So I make myself vulnerable.
I put my trust in the process. I put the trust in myself in my own knowledge and that I present that to that person gently and delicately because you know, they're going to be in front of their peers and others and just gently say, what could you get if you paused and listened to. So to your point earlier, what's in it for me in a way, where does the perspective start to shift and change with God's to creating more awareness for people.
And I feel this is a really important [00:32:00] part of this, as well as vulnerability awareness trust there. So let's start to work together and we need to be able to give this to ourselves. Cause that's part of the journey.
Scott: Yeah, I agree. Definitely every journey starts from within. And I think what you were saying in the beginning about teams as well.
So I think organizations were sitting there going, no, this is what we're going to do from management downs of staff is not going to work because the staff, I think, half of the space to say, how does this play out? Absolutely Megan, to be in it. Once Ivy, once I've worked out, what is going to be for me, then how can I make that work for me?
And if we can work that way with T. And it doesn't matter what size of organization you are, even if you're a manager of 10 people or you're mad, or you're a team leader of five or your, a company that's got 30, 40 thousands. We can just bring everybody along. And sometimes, sometimes you think it's easy yet.
If you're a smaller company, but I think that even big companies can because you have smaller teams. Yeah.
Mark: The [00:33:00] principles still apply. You still got to shut. You still got to show up for the individual, no matter how many you have report reporting into you still to show up and figure out and go on the journey of how do I show up?
What happens when I show up? What do I enable for myself when I show up? So there's a process. It's it's. It enables all sorts. I mean, there's a wonderful picture. I saw once at a great friend of mine should have been, it was a river in Germany and the sun was arising the distance and it was reflected through the water.
But in the water, you could see all the movement from the current. So whilst this was it appeared to be a static picture that there was a reflection, there was movement. There was. It's all sorts of things unfolding and playing out, even though it appeared static. And I think it just really captured for me our internal process and becoming aware of that.
And not letting us over, not letting it overwhelm us all the time and then wondering, well, how did I get here? And it's the first stage of awareness. I did something I've ended up here. I'm angry. I'm frustrated. I'm [00:34:00] not sure how I got ya. And it might be you repeat that or you might go hang on. I noticed that something happened about five minutes ago, somebody said something or something was done or, or something triggered me.
Now you can go back to that point and go, okay. So when that happens again, I can choose something else. So here comes the self-awareness it comes to trust. Check comes the the whole process doesn't to, to play out a little bit. I mean, it's not terribly complex, but it, it is a, it is a process of acknowledging, noticing, experiencing rather, and that takes a whole body approach.
That's not just a. What I mean by the head is we think so much. Sometimes we forget to, we get to use the rest of our facilities now, our capabilities. So, so checking in with, hang on, hang on. I'm really getting nervous. I'm sweating. My voice is starting to tremor. There's something going on. Yeah. I mean, maybe it's just need to take a deep breath and just pause and reconnect with myself.
And make a different choice because [00:35:00] I don't want to end up being angry. So that's real awareness. That's where trust can be built. So you can literally articulate that and say I'm starting to feel quite nervous about. The, for example, the numbers, aren't adding up the way that they should. And I, I'm getting quite uncomfortable with this.
That's a, that's a beautiful way of introducing. I'm starting to feel uncomfortable with this. And I'm not sure what we, what we're really going to do with this, but we we're going to need to fix figure this one out. And that could be a small team for a small corporate or sorry, small organization or for a corporate.
But those principles of stepping into that space, being a little vulnerable, building the trust, checking with yourself, that process applies to everyone. And there's the individual leaders. 'cause when we notice that for ourselves, we can stop behaving, choosing, becoming a way in many, many different ways.
So that's the leadership piece. I think that is available to individuals and it is absolutely a leadership piece. It could, it's got nothing to do with title or ankle grade or bonus, or [00:36:00] how we choose to show up for each other and how we choose to maybe have an honest conversation about stuff. Yeah, you can have a joke and a laugh and go down to the pub.
If that's appropriate for you or your friends, you know, or you can go sit in the park and have a good, whatever it is that's relevant. But yeah, there's something here about how, how will we recognize our role as leaders as individuals. We don't need a title and how we lead ourselves into trust into vulnerability and experience at first, because there's something very powerful in that and what it brings to each of us.
Yeah.
Scott: I just want to just highlight two things as that's. Okay. Well, you said it's not complex what we're doing. I might try it. I might, I might question the use of language there if you don't mind. Possibly. I don't think it's complicated, but it is complex.
Because the complexity is understanding all those different things playing together, but the complicated, it's not [00:37:00] complicated. Somethings happens. This creates a trigger. That's created a response and I want to choose how to respond rather than react. But the complexity is. What is it? How am I reacting?
What's the impact on me? What choices do I have? How do I then choose? So, and everybody's different in that space. So Alexa T but I don't think the process itself is complicated, if that
Mark: makes sense. Absolutely. Isn't it, there's an awareness that you're talking to. That you can identify the complexity and that it the different elements to it.
But I can recall a time in my life when I had, no, I didn't have the awareness I have now. And, and I say that with complete and absolute humility, and it's not coming from a point of arrogance at all, because I made the choice. I made the choice to start. I just made a choice because I realized I was. [00:38:00] He wasn't doing and being who I really could have been.
So at that stage, I really struggled with simply figuring out how to trust myself because my life journey had been, I had learned how to protect myself. More than anything else. And that had led me to rely on one and only one person, which was me. So, and, and to, you know, enter a young lady who I'm now married to and I had to learn to trust her.
I have to learn to, I also had to learn to trust myself, to trust her if that makes sense. So. As I was learning that and the loyalty came in and she stood by me when I wanted to run, because I was wanting to get back to something which was more familiar. And I was feeling very vulnerable. I had to learn how to trust that loyalty.
So she stood by me as I went through this, this I [00:39:00] want to run and I want to go back to stuff which is more familiar. She just stood by me and she didn't mean to make it overly dramatic. She just, she just put her hand on my shoulders, basically told me she loved me. And she said I'm here. In words to that effect.
And that's what I learned. So my awareness came from the point of, as I experienced that I started become more aware of, ah, so that's what I I'm actually am okay. In this. So, and as I became, as I allowed myself to experience more and became an, and brought more vulnerability to it and sort of trusting more.
So I saw more, but at the time, The only thing that I was aware of was I'm not feeling comfortable. I want to get away from that. I want to get back to something which is more comfort. I don't want to be uncomfortable. It wasn't complex at all. It's simply was I just want to go back to state where I am, but as I played and I worked with that and I, I noticed it and I became more vulnerable.[00:40:00]
So the layers that the different levels sort of opened up to me. So I think we're fortunate in that we can talk about, and I think it is, it's a beautiful example of that. The awareness of we can work from home, you know, it's just, it's a more simplistic in pragmatic perspective, but. So in a way of, yes, I agree with you, but I think there's more to it than it's and I'm not, you're not saying this it's not a light switch.
I think it's, it's a, it's a gradual increase in, as you put yourself into these positions as a gradual increase of knowledge and awareness where you start to see there's more to it. And sometimes the simplest way of dealing with this is just to take a deep breath and acknowledge it right now. I'm getting uncomfortable.
I I'm either going to say something removed myself oh. Or not say something, but it's a more conscious choice and that isn't always. Or has complexity. Sometimes it is just [00:41:00] very, very simple. I'm not feeling comfortable. I need to get out of this or I need to say something, what am I going to do? So that awareness is, is in the moment.
It's, it's just very, you're in it. What are you going to do? So, yeah, I'm not disagreeing necessarily. But maybe I'm just trying to add a little bit more too, because I think yes. And I'll shut up now. Cause I think at times it can be collected quite complex. Yeah. I mean, at times at times it can be quite simple, simple as
Scott: well.
Oh, I think, I think we have a complicate things and not, and I say that the complexity is just about the different layers that are in there. And as you say, as the redness comes, we can peel back more or less and get a deeper understanding of . I think my mind came from when I used to work in the prison service.
And that's where I developed that level of awareness. And cause you just have to try and I love it again. It's an analogy and I love analogies is I look at it [00:42:00] as I was always looking at how can I calibrate myself to be effective in this situation. So I developed that sort of awareness that I needed to change how I was in any given situation to try to be effective because you'll deal with.
30 to 60 people, although you're trying to get them to do the same thing. It's 36 to people have to find a reason to do it. So you can't, you can't have that same conversation with 36 people and it be effective. So I think it was about me learning that calibration of myself and being a wedge. What this isn't quite right?
This, this doesn't feel the same to digest the day. There's something not quite right. So I've got to be really cautious and conscious of what I'm doing now. So I don't inflame the situation or I can try and deescalate what's going on, whatever it is. So I think that sort of dynamic awareness was bill from working there.
Cause I did that for about 14 years and then building that awareness of yourself and how to, I think, calibrates a good thing, how you can calibrate yourself to be effective on the [00:43:00] engineering, changing, tweaking just a little bit to be effective in the myriad of situations, we would find ourselves in women with.
Regardless of how big it was. Small group, man, 10 individuals, 20 individuals, but they're all individuals. They just are working together as a team. Hopefully.
Mark: Yeah, I'm going to, what's lovely about what you're talking to is the depth and richness of your experiences has a con had a context. You talked to the adaptability and the flexibility of that that'll work with one person, but it's not going to work with another you know, that, that approach of, okay, how do I, how do I, how do I match my style?
Why do I change my style? To best connect with this person. Not because I want to be Machiavellian about it, but purely because I want to connect with them because there's something that's really important. Yeah. So it's a, it's a lovely, it's a lovely, I love the way you explained that and you broke it down.
That's a very insightful, so
Scott: I was Gary Klein says once you gain insight, you can't go back to your old ways of. [00:44:00] Which I think is such a powerful quote. I mean, by that journey, we talk about every new insight, no matter how small or big it is, is that shift in perception, which is then the springboard for the next
Mark: one.
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I love, I agree. It's embedded in my DNA now that you know, I, I, there were times when it, where I learned a lesson and then I went back and I, I. It's something again, out of ignorance and ended up hurting somebody or hurting myself and realizing actually, no, that's not something I ever want to do again, because it, it doesn't, it hasn't, it hasn't given me the purpose of the satisfaction or the is something far more deeper.
It just eroded that and took away from it. Some, some kind of essence. And so that, that, that, that was learnt as well. And so it's a great way. You, you, you lay that out, but. This P this piece around you, you can't go back. Not because no one, not because it's being enforced, I'm having, in some cases, in a pragmatic data is going to be enforced like crime or whatever, [00:45:00] but there might come a point where you, but you make a decision and you go, that's just, that's just not going to be good for me.
I'm not going to go back and play with that again. But again, there's many circumstances in many situations. We've got to learn stuff to, to come out the other side. And sometimes we done
Scott: no, and I think it's quite cause I, I think the one way to possibly look at closing this off, when you were talking is about the, you used the word choice throughout this deal conversation as a word you choose, choose, or a choice was used multiple times.
And I, I agree that we'll get to the point is we can consciously be more aware of constantly to. What we choose to do in that position rather than unconsciously making that choice that we're not aware of. So I think that's that other spot. And rather than reacting you say, I can recognize I'm not in a good place at the minute.
I'm nervous or I'm uncomfortable. Let's take a pause. [00:46:00] Let's now think. And then now let's act, I think, just to say building that space, that thinking space though, as you say, that pausing spaces is an important aspect.
Mark: Yeah, this that's great. It's a great place to finish. Cause I think it, it, it brings it all full circle is, is when you, when you start to acknowledge and become aware of and are vulnerable to what is my choice in this situation?
What do I really want to do as you sort of start to shine a light on that, that piece of your awareness? You're spot on You, you become more aware of the different pieces that are there for you. And it's, it's not sort of it's, it's fascinating to me because as you do that, you can, you can start to acknowledge how things might play out.
And there's that piece that we come back to, which is, you may realize that you don't want to go back. It could be, it could be an old relationship, or it could be an old flame and you go, actually, you [00:47:00] know what, it's great Spock there, but actually I ended up worse off. So I'm not gonna, I'm not. Go back into that.
And I'm going to keep an eye open for those kinds of qualities. When when I, you know, those kinds of dynamics when when I meet other people and maybe, maybe I just look after myself differently. So this, this choice pieces in the moment. Well, what is it that's actually going on for me? What do I want to do with it?
But doing it from an authentic place, not a, not a Machiavellian, I'm going to screw you over. And I'm just, and I'm not naive enough to think that doesn't happen. Of course it happens. It's we live in a, we live in an interesting world, put it mildly. But there's something very powerful when you see people stepping into a space, which is authentic.
When it's present, when it's vulnerable and there's a real sense of connection that can be created. And that, that is really standing out. Significantly than the old ways of doing things. And you can see those people who are making these choices differently and they come with, they come with a very different level of thinking.[00:48:00]
And I see it in the younger generation. I see the strength and an awareness that my generation didn't necessarily always know. And I'm fascinated by it because I'm like, wow, wait, what have they, can I look at my daughter in some car and some of her friends and, and that age group at my daughter's school.
And I go, these young girls are, are stronger and have a level of wisdom with them. That that is I've, I'm really pleased to see that's just from again from a very humble place. But different to, to when I was growing up, I mean, there's many reasons, but this self-awareness to bring it back home. This self awareness is such a, such a powerful piece.
And within that is his choice. And when we choose things differently and when we choose something different for ourselves and potentially for those around us, it's it has real. Purpose and there's the link to sort of sustained or sustainability anyway, but that might be another conversation. [00:49:00]
Scott: One of many, possibly one of many.
So what
Mark: do you want to call it?
Scott: And he's got start with with, how might we, so how might we,
Mark: how might we
become aware to help each other
Scott: and might we become aware to help you. Okay. I like that. I'll go to white this time or else I'll forget it. '
Mark: cause I'm probably will. Well, it's
Scott: terrible. You got a record again, is recognizing where it is in memory is not a great one minutes, you know, each other, I think, cause I live in the moment so much anything that happened five minutes ago, that's gone now.
I'm here.
And that's definitely me out, outside, out of mind.
Mark: Just to say, Scott, thank you. And this is the first time I've done something like this. And It's been good to do. And I've really enjoyed it, but to anyone who's listening. Thanks for listening as well.
Scott: That'd be people listening.
Trust
Mark: me. We've read a rattled on a little bit, but I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me. Thank you.
Scott: Welcome. Okay, so mark, thank [00:50:00] you very much for your time.
 

How Might We Go Back To The Future With Leadership

TRUST is the genesis of economic prosperity.
 
A lively debate today with Oakland McCulloch, Douglas Lines and Geoff Hudson-Searle, discussing the role of leadership in creating trust.
 
Douglas Lines: Douglas is a senior business leader, executive committee member with substantial global commercial experience, operating principally in financial services.
 
Geoffrey M.J Hudson-Searle: Geoff is a serial business advisor, CSuite Executive and Non-Executive Director to Private and Publicly listed growth-phase tech companies. An author of 5 books including the best seller Purposeful Discussions and rated by Agilience as a Top 250 Harvard Business School authority covering; ‘Strategic Management’ and ‘Management Consulting’
 
Oakland McCulloch: Oak is aRetired Lieutenant Colonel Oakland McCulloch is the author of the 2021 release, Your Leadership Legacy: Becoming the Leader You Were Meant to Be. Based on 40+ years of leadership in the U.S. Army and subsequent civilian positions, Oak highlights principles that will benefit today’s leaders and inspire the leaders of tomorrow. Oak is also well-known speaker who gives presentations on a variety of topics including leadership, success, military history, college preparation and others.
 
Trust directly influences the actions and outcomes of business every day. By embedding trust in a company’s business, leaders generate value for their stakeholders and society more broadly now and in the future. Trust between employer and employee and among employees enhances human capital investment. Trust influences the behaviours of both employers and employees. Deloitte research suggests that employees who highly trust their employer are about half as likely to seek new job opportunities as those who don’t. At the same time, workers are more likely to invest in their own skill building if they trust that their employer will reward them for their efforts. This is especially true regarding non-transferable or firm-specific skills, which suggests that trust can raise the level of institutional knowledge that can lead to more productive work.
 
Geoff and Douglas: https://ib-em.com/
 
Oakland: https://www.ltcoakmcculloch.com
 
Scott: https://theinnovatecrowd.com
 
Blog site, books, news and resources: https://freedomafterthesharks.com/
 
Transcript
 
Scott: [00:00:00]
Hello, and welcome to the latest edition of how might we, and I've got a first, I have three guests with me this time. So it'll be interesting how this pans out the title for this podcast is how might we go back to the future with leadership? So with me today is Oakland McCulloch, Jeff Hudson, cell, and Douglas lines.
So gentlemen, in no particular order who would like to go first and introduce themselves to the lovely listeners?
Oakland: Well, I'm a retired Lieutenant Colonel McCall on. Yeah, over here in America. So across the pond there, as you guys would say did 23 years in the army retired, a Lieutenant Colonel had got about 40 years of leadership experience one way or another.
And recently wrote a book your leadership legacy becoming the leader you were meant to be. And and I'm out on the speaking and speaking tours doing some [00:01:00] speaking, but but excited to be here with, with all three of you and looking forward to talking about.
Scott: Okay. Lovely. Thank you very much.
And I will go international then. So Douglas, you want to go next is our next,
Douglas: thank you. Scott says you can hear my accent clearly, south African living in the UK educated in the us. And actually I have a German driver's license. I think that confuses most, really great to be here with you guys today, a conversation and a topic that I'm enormously passionate about.
Equally like Oak. I have in excess of 20 years experience leading businesses and teams have learned to the good, the bad and the ugly along the way. But I really believe that with great leadership there's great opportunities for, for the world that we live in and certainly going forward. And it's that positivity that each and every one of us can bring in our lives not only in professional, you know, corporate life, but equally in our personal lives in our community.
So really looking forward to the conversation, Scott.
Scott: Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. And Geoff,
Geoff: .Thank you, Scott. It's a pleasure to be here. And I [00:02:00] also a great pleasure to be here with both Douglas and Oak I'm really looking forward to this conversation. My name is Geoff Hudson Searle.
I'm a 30 year executive serial business advisor for growth phase companies. C-suite executive private and publicly listed companies both CEO, CMO and CCO. I've been at NXD for the last 13 years, mainly on around regulation technology and internet security. And I'm an author and thought leader of my sixth book, which will be out 2022, which is called the trust paradigm.
And. As I said before I do have a little bit of an explainer, everything that's, I will be discussing today with, with both Oak and Douglas, I must make clear that these are my personal preferences and they are not of the preferences of any of the companies that I represent.
Scott: Okay.
Thank you very much. See, I only represent my one company, so I never have to put that disclaimer in, this is me. [00:03:00] It's just the way it is. It makes life so much more simple, so much more simple. Okay guys. So we, we had a chat before we came on, live on air I'm one of the, we were talking about the time it was and we said, we go back to the future back to back to the future for leadership.
So, oh, go to you. Why do you think, well, what was it about that title that you liked and sort of what it was suggesting?
Oakland: Yeah. So I think that we have gotten away from producing leaders who. Understand what their job is, and it's not about them. I think we've got to get back to producing servant leaders who, who understand that it's about the organization.
It's about the people who work for that organization. And if they put the focus on that, then the organization will, will do well and they'll get their benefits in the end anyway. But if, if you're becoming leaders and I think at least here in America, we are producing leaders at all levels. In all professions, politicians, businessmen, military, we're [00:04:00] producing leaders who have forgotten why they are leaders.
And it's not about their title. It's not about the power that they get. It's not about the money they make. If that's why you're picking to be a leader, then go do something else because you're going to be a horrible leader. As we see in the world right now, if you want to be a good leader, you gotta, we gotta get back to if we want things to get better in this.
We got to get back to producing leaders who understand that it's not about them. It's about the organization and the people.
Scott: Okay. Lovely. Thank you. Listen, would you like to come in on that, but yeah, I think
Douglas: first of all, I, you know, I'm a firm believer that we live in a, an environment of contextual change that's happening at a rate that we cannot even begin to imagine.
And so this matter of contextual leadership is really profound for me. And I think coupled with that is I do not believe that the past is necessarily the proxy of the future of leadership. I think there's aspects where we want to take the best from the past. But be enormously curious about the future and, and I challenge leaders in every society and [00:05:00] every level of our organization to really continue their journey of personal reimagination, because I don't think leadership is static anymore.
And, and coupled with an enormous amount of curiosity about the world that we live in. And so, yeah, enormously passionate in terms of, of, of going from that past world and the great learnings that are exploded, use those, don't lose them, but bring new ones that compliment and enhance this ever-changing context we operating.
Scott: So don't, don't throw the bath board out with the baby type thing. So let's learn from the past and that's okay. But when we learnt leaders in the past, it was principles, but application was going to change because the world is changing at a pace. We never, I love the curiosity aspect, but I do think that we under under milk or under rag, really the value of curiosity.
In what we do, because I think curiosity is the path to finding new ways of working, working out. What's working, what's not working doing this, [00:06:00] but I think curiosity with care. Absolutely. Yeah. So it's not about challenging, Jeff, would you like to come in on anything
Geoff: that was mentioned? Yeah, look, I, I can't disagree.
You know with my colleagues whatsoever. I think we do need to get back into back to the future and more importantly, the time machine on a few issues. I'd like to, I'd like to talk about some of those issues. You know, we talked about principles, we've talked about, you know, accountability.
I mean, if we go back in history, you know leadership was more passionate 20 years ago. Right. You know, you got to see at the top of the tree with his people or. And you have a lot more passion. You have a lot more care. You, you had value of valued system okay. In your organization, which, which we were not seeing too much today.
And as a Douglas quite touched on, you know, we're, we're at another rating change of pace changes, constant. This is not. Cycle or an event that we're just describing right now, this is constant, right. And that's [00:07:00] changing people's human behaviors, but unless we get back to some basic principles around leadership and then you can get, you can actually get hold of any major.
Key piece of research, whether it's Duke's universe, duke university, whether it's PWC, whether it's McKinsey, I'll tell you that we are failing in leadership. Okay. We're failing because we've got an there, there are many factors that go around that. I mean, most of the discussion points that we're hearing right now is the CEO can't do it on his or her own that we need multiple CEOs in an organization to actually affect true change that can actually be applied to a business that can actually drive growth and performance.
Number one. And number two is, you know, you to them. Debbie W's talked a little bit. I care. Well, I'm a great believer that, I mean, we've got to start listening more. We've got to have, we've got to be more empathetic. We've got to start understanding more. But we're not seeing that we did have that 20.
We had that in leadership 20 years [00:08:00] ago, because that was the mantra. The mantra is, you know, you work for a company and you're not leaving after 12 months. You not leaving after because of the great resign you're you are a part of this organization and you're going to work with this organization and you've got to get promoted.
And eventually you've got to get your gold watch after so many years and you'll retire and have a nice life. Now you're lucky if you have three years in a G and a C suite executive within an organization, and then suddenly you've got changing, I've seen it in some of the large groupers where they're changing divisional leadership every nine months.
Well, how do you expect. Executional change and performance and, and work on things like KPIs and actually deliver growth. If you've got a constant change in leadership and then with it, a constant change in people. So I think there is an awful lot here that we needed to unpack. But I think fundamentally there are some major flaws over, over human behavior.
[00:09:00] Yeah. My human behavior in leadership as well, and, and leadership's ability to actually be accountable and actually execute.
Scott: Okay. So accountability and execution. Cause a lot of times you see all the stuff is easy in the news now is every time you sit, we'll pick up Lucas, I pick up a newspaper who does that or see the newspaper online.
Whatever we do now is about this. This happens, this has happened. This is an apology from this company for this and apology from a company for that behavior and things that they've done, they just seem to be constantly coming. And some of the defense is that senior management teams. So I didn't know, I didn't know this was happening.
It might be. There is that side.
Geoff: But
the other side that I touched on was passion, where is the passion that we had, you know, in entrepreneurs, you know, you see passion because, you know, they will live and breathe their business. Incorporate the very few people that I can think of where I can see. I see sheer tenacity, sheer determination, sheer passion, passion, or [00:10:00] just for the business passion for that people.
Gotcha.
Oakland: Yeah. I would agree with you, Geoff but I want to go back to one of the things Scott just said about responsibility. I mean, we ha we have gotten to a point where people at all levels are saying not my responsibility, really, as a leader, at least as what I've learned as a leader, I can give away all the authority.
I. I can give you all the authority to do whatever you want, all the resources to do it, but in the end, whether it fails or, or is successful is on me. My name's still on the blame line. If I'm a leader and we have gotten to the point now where nobody is willing to take responsibility, it's all about, it's not my responsibility because we're all, they're all so worried about getting to their next level, getting their next promotion, getting their next paycheck, pay, raise that they're there.
They're afraid to take responsibility for [00:11:00] things that don't go well, but that's what leaders do. Leaders are supposed to take the responsibility, whether your unit, your organization, your company, your whatever you're leading does well or not. You okay. Good bad or ugly if you're the leader and we got to get back to people doing it.
And I, you know, and I, I grew up in the army mostly and as a leader and I had a boss who retired a four-star general, who said to me one day when he was a Colonel and I was a captain and he said, Oak, if you didn't make a mistake today, you probably didn't do anything. And he said, I don't care if you made a mistake, is it nobody in the world is perfect.
I keep trying to convince my wife that I'm perfect, but she's not buying it, but nobody in the world is perfect. And it's what he said. He said, I don't care if you made a mistake. What I care about is what did you do after you made the mistake? Did you try to hide it? Did you blame somebody else? Or did you walk into my office and say, Hey boss, I messed up.
Here's how we're going to fix it. And if you do that, then, [00:12:00] okay, let's go fix it. I mean, we've got to get back to that kind of mentality.
Douglas: I think you know, Scott and I can do, if one of the things that I'm very passionate about. Is diversity within leadership and leadership teams. And what do I mean by that?
Well, when you look at a lot of C-suite appointments, especially big corporations, they tend to recruit leaders from the same industry from competitors. And I think, you know, McKinsey did a survey about a year ago and said, well, out of all the, the C-suites, they interviewed 86% of them. I felt that that did not have the right mixture of leaders on their team.
And so I keep questioning this, this, this, and I'll call it dominant industry logic that says, you know what, I'm in the motor manufacturing industry. I need to get a motor manufacturing executive. And I want to challenge that because I fundamentally believe. That's the ability to cross pollinate from different industries with different skill sets you know, has got such richness in it.
I'll give you a real example. I've [00:13:00] been in financial services and the senior banking executive for many years, some of my best leaders had spent time in the military. And why was it? Because they had incredible discipline, incredible focus. And that was as a banker to have that skillset is incredible. So for me, you know, I'm really passionate about saying, how do we change the world we live in?
Because not only does it bring a different perspective, we need us come from different industries or, or experiences, but it brings about something in terms of innovation. And I think when I look at most companies around the world, you know, I think most of them are running you know, run the business or grow the business are the ones that are really transforming the business.
And I was reading an article today about the base decision that Steve jobs ever made an app. The best decision Steve jobs made was he actually said, I'm going to kill the RPOD. I'm not going to kill it because I'm going to launch the iPhone. And he had a great business model. He was doing fantastically well with apple, but the orphan took them [00:14:00] into a different stratosphere in terms of the global expansion.
So you've got to as leaders and with that diverse thinking, be able to disrupt yourself and to disrupt yourself. Sometimes you have to see the world differently. And so bringing, and, and Jeff, you mentioned Rob beginning, bringing skillsets from very different varnish points, creates something unique in chemistry.
And we don't see that often enough, whether it is in corporate laugh, whether it is in a small, medium sized businesses, whether it's in, I'm sure in the military or government departments. And that's something we should be looking at dynamically going forward to change.
Geoff: So I, I, I concur completely with what you said.
I think to me, if you start looking at the word accountability, Responsibility, right. I'm afraid I have to come back to the word trust because if you're not a responsible leader and if you're a leader without accountability, how do you expect to lead others? And more importantly, how [00:15:00] do you expect people follow you?
Look, you know, if you start looking at trust and you start looking at leadership trust, right? You know, you're talking about everything that really evolves around incremental value, accelerated growth, enhanced innovation, improved collaboration, you know, stronger partnering course, better execution across everything you're doing.
But most importantly, heightened loyalty. How do you expect to lead a lead a business if you don't have
Scott: trust?
Oakland: Trust is so huge. And I think, you know, that's, that goes back to the culture and it, you know, I had this discussion the other day with, with a young Young ROTC cadet. Cause in my day job, I'd recruit for army ROTC here in the United States produced the next level of officers.
And I, and I had this conversation with him and I was, we were talking about this very subject and I said you to build that the two things that a leader is most responsible for, at least in my opinion, having a vision where you [00:16:00] want this organization to be a year from now five years from now, 10 years from now, even if you're not going to be around and number two, building the culture of the organization and culture, although it will happen.
If you don't do anything, that's not the culture you generally want. If you want the culture that you want, you're going to have to invest some time, energy, money training to get there. And I think that goes along with what Jeff is saying. If you don't have the right culture where it, and again, part of that is being a servant leader.
If you're a servant leader with the right call. Your people are going to trust you because you're doing the right things. You're taking care of them. You've put their, their wishes and needs and desires ahead of your own. And if you do that, I can just tell you, and in my experience, being in the army, if you do show people that they can trust you and that you've got their best interest, they'll do anything you ask them to do and including charge them machine [00:17:00] gun nest, if that's what you want them to do.
Yeah.
Douglas: Okay. I think you're right. And you know, just when, what was coming to mind when you were talking, there was something that I've, you know, really indoctrinated over many years as a leader, that's vision led and values driven, and part of that, and part of that is trust and embedded in that culture.
It's about lighting the fire and people's hearts, not under their butts. And, and to me, that's something we are, you know, whether you're a leader in a, in a, in a local community or an organization, doesn't really matter. It's the same skill set that you do. And it's amazing when you see it in people's eyes.
When you locked up the heart in terms of that inspiration and in our ma my alumni university in the USG university spoke of this combination of RQ Q and DQ, and we know what RQ and EEQ are, but DQ is decency quotient. And so as leaders that, and Jeff mentioned earlier, this empathy of deeply listening.
But inspiring to do [00:18:00] that, but, but I think without doubt, we all agree that trust is the foundation. I do recall many, a years ago, there was a, a wonderful video clip on YouTube with the light Colin Powell who stood up and spoke about leadership. And the one thing he kept on reemphasizing, and I'll never forget, this was building the trust with the troops.
And without that trust, you cannot lead and any, and you could see that it wasn't a, it wasn't lip service. He actually, I'm sure you would know this. He was, he was in, he was on the front lines with us troops on many occasions. I'm sure, but also the ability to demonstrate as a leader, that there are times when you need to be in the front line with the team.
But if something goes horribly wrong, that you're the one that takes the full accountability. When things go right, you give them the credit. And so there's times as a leader, what you need to be on the field, but, you know, and then pivot back to the top of the hill to, to see the landscape and knowing your, when your people see.
And I will follow you as you rock. He said, oh, they'll follow you wherever you go. [00:19:00] And you,
Geoff: I think you said some very key points that Douglas in, in particular around empathy there's a very good book called creative confidence in inspired Solomon David Kelly who were the founders of IDEO. And they won awards for this book.
And what it really talks about is having reason why it's called creative confidence is because leadership allowing the people to actually be creative, be innovative. I don't really want to talk about COVID 19, but I will talk about it as an event. One of the biggest, most damaging things that we had in business globally and internationally during this event was the fact that people were isolated.
People were lonely. People were suffering from mental. They didn't. So you talk about, you know, the McKinsey 86% issue. I, we IBM did, did did a trust report back in [00:20:00] 2000 and and 20, and we use data pad to do some really interesting work. That report shows that 69% of all people surveyed within the report, didn't trust their line manager and didn't actually trust their CEO.
And that was before the event to think about all of the lack of creativity and lack of innovation before the event took place. I want to just briefly quote you something from the book, which is on page 19, which I really love, and it talks about empathy. Empathy means challenging your preconceived ideas and setting aside your sense of what you think is true in order to learn what actually is true to me, that resident that is always that particular quote from that particular book has always resonated with me.
Run [00:21:00] always resonates because we've got to start getting back to the, what I said earlier, listening, empathy, understanding you could question about how leadership actually has communicated with their people are more they should be doing in order to communicate with the people, because all of that falls immediately into one of the largest single most biggest problems in the world today.
And that's trust.
Scott: I want to go back to what Douglas said, if you don't mind. And I think what's, and it comes back to what you said there too, about the empathy in that, and it is about, and it goes back to what I said as well about servant leadership. I think one of the keys about leadership is to be selfless.
That's one of the key traits that you can do. So in the trust model, I've developed a lot of research around trust from various different people in my experiences from my time in the prison service is if, if you are people always look at motives. [00:22:00] So if you want, if you are motivated by your personal gain, over asking people to do something to chances of them actually wanting to do for you is minimal.
If they can see that you're motivated by the greater good, whatever that might be, then that's going to help people follow that because they say, yeah, it might be a bad decision, but there's no ulterior motive. There's no hidden agenda here. They're not doing it just to get something for themselves. So I think that selflessness is important.
And what you said, Geoff about the communication and one of the key things in the coach program, I've got. Just an activity and it's called me, myself and I. How many conversations do you have or emails do you receive where the word I permeates the conversation? Yeah. What that is demonstrating that this person is talking, is looking at seeing things and asking from a personal perspective.
So I would like you to do this and we're supposed to be doing it for you instead of saying to somebody, okay, what do you want to achieve? How can we support you? Getting there? What skills do we, can we help you develop out of what we've got? What could I delegate to you? [00:23:00]That's going to help you, rather than the we're a bit busy.
I've got this job. I would like you to do that, that whole conversation piece in how we actually approach and communicate says to somebody I'm trying to do it to help you, or I'm doing it to help me. I think if we really look, so the emails, you get the, in the email conversations and read it. How many times are you asking people to do something, to help you?
And it goes totally against that. Self-sense so it becomes, it becomes self focused rather than other focus, I think is one of the. That and emotions, the emotional connection, I think are the two biggest drivers for trust. And we concentrate on the other ones, which is our capabilities, our credibility, and our believe ability, because they're easy.
You can put your things up on the wall. You can go to university, you can get your degrees, you can do this and do that. And it comes back to what you were saying Douglas about. I can work for you because I've demonstrated I can, I've done this in an industry similar to yours, so I can slip in and do that.
And it's just going to be easy. So there's this, I think in some ways, those decisions are driven by fear, [00:24:00] fear of not taking the recipe. You've got Edward de bono who's sadly passed away a couple of years ago. He went to, he, he went to a conversation in, I think it was involved in a conference with someone like shell and he asked a question like a beginner increase productivity in their Wells.
And I think there's something like 300% by just asking. Because he didn't work in the industry. So he was curious, I said, why'd you do that? Can we do it this way? And somebody says, never thought of that. Hang on a minute. Yes, we can. Let's let's try it. Let's experiment it 300. I think it was some of that 300% increase in productivity per well, from that, be willing to ask questions like a beginner.
Oakland: I absolutely agree. And I always emphasized that leadership is leadership. It doesn't matter where you learn. It doesn't matter where you practice it. If you're a leader, you can lead any organization. Now there's a learning curve. I got it. You got to learn some things, whatever. But, but as [00:25:00] Douglas says, I I'm a firm believer that you can take people from outside and bring them in.
And not only are you now using their unique experience and knowledge, but they're looking at it from the. Different set up through a set of eyes that, that don't know exactly what should be happening. So they, like you're saying Scott, they, they, they can ask those simple questions because they don't know.
And you know, one of the things that I'm, I believe in as a leader that I always do is when I first take over an organization, I just go out and start walking around, talking to people and start asking those questions. So what, what is it you do? Why do you do it that way? Have we always done it that way?
Or is there a better way that you can think of that we can do it. It might make your job easier. If you start asking those questions, you get a couple of things happen. Number one, the people in your organization say, Hey, the boss came down and actually asked me some questions. He may actually care about what I think about.
[00:26:00] Number two, they start feeling like they're a valued member of the organization. And number three is that you might hit that, like you're saying, Scott, you might hit that one question that then changes the way we do everything in that organization, because there may be a better way to do it because the problem that we have in our organizations is the same problem we have in us.
As people organizations have a mental, have a mental memory, just like people do. And we do things because we've always done them that way. I hate that term. If anybody ever tells me, when I ask them, why do you do it that way? And they tell me, because that's the way we've always done them, done it. I just want to reach out and just choke them.
What a horrible. Tell me the desk, the way we've always done it because it works or that we've tried other things, and this is the best way we've come up with. I got that, but just telling me that that's the way we've always done it. Don't waste my time that I don't want to hear that that's just being lazy because that's the way we've always done it.
So if you bring in new eyes, [00:27:00] new people, not afraid to take chances to take a risk. You know, as Rommel said, you know, who's one of my heroes feel Marshall Rommel. You said, you got to know the difference between a risk and a gamble, a risk you can recover from, if it doesn't work, your gamble, you're done. So, you know, you got to know that difference, but if we got to take, be willing to take those risks so that we can bring in that fresh blood, those fresh eyes, ask those good questions.
Like Scott said, if we do that, then along with building the trust and the culture and taking care of people, then I think, you know, we're we're, we are doing the right things at that point. And the sky is the limit of what we can.
Geoff: I think there's another point here and at the beginning, Douglas talks about the pace of change.
And as I said, I think change is constant now, you know, it's, it's, it's kind of, which also then stays the leadership needs a reinvention. Okay. And one of the things [00:28:00] that, that command and control that we used to have in leadership is over those days are over there longer. And I think that culture, which Oak talks about is incredibly important because when we start talking about culture, we've got to start thinking inclusion that the little guy or the little girl at the back of the room may have a voice, may have some incredibly important side.
We need to, we need to listen. We need to empower them. We need to bring them in because they need to be included. And the, the, one of the big problems with great resign is because nobody wants to. Even think about inclusion. It's back to that. I skull that you said earlier, me, myself scenario. No, it's got to be about we us on that journey on that path.
And culture is an important part of all organizational matters today. And particularly with leadership, [00:29:00] there's more importantly that you practice. This is not something that's reserved for the C drive and for the shelf, it's got to be a living, breathing subject matter that people in any of the effects behavior, because it's all about, you know, it's all about let's say personality trait, but it's all about, I mean, trust is is an output of behavior is how we behave.
We are now talking about ethics and we're talking about morals. I've never stopped talking about ethics and morals within corporations within corporate. Right. You know, why are we now starting to talk about it now? You know, is it because, you know, antitrust laws, are they, have they just been made policy in 2022?
No, they'd been around forever, but the fact is culture by main boards, boards of directors from the top down and the bottom up have got to be exercised. The only way to do that is that they're living and breathing with the organization. We start [00:30:00] looking at businesses that have adopted culture in a number one, and I have got a, a very strong emphasis on within your organization, how you behave.
So the people they hire, the sort of people that, that are on a, on a trajectory for growth and change and development, all of the sort of people that have got a future. They're not interested in the current resign because there's purpose. They get out of bed in the morning. It's not just for a paycheck.
As I indicated to this is, this is about, you know, I'm a part of something. I will be a part of greatness. I'm being part of something here today. I'm passionate about what I do. I love what I do. And more importantly, who I work with now, now, now that needs to be considered. And I think, you know, like I said, leadership I said earlier, leadership is becoming impossible for some and, and [00:31:00]Douglas, you, you quoted those statistics.
They're not wrong. They're right. In every way, shape and form leadership needs to be reinvented. Raving vented authority needs to be reinvented. Otherwise corporations are going to come to a very expensive and.
Douglas: Jeff, I think, as you were talking there, I mean, it came to mind and, you know, I think all of us in our journey so far in life, we we've come across good leaders, great leaders per leaders.
And I've always seen a common trait in a great leader is having the combination of intelligence, but wisdom. And what does that mean? So intelligence means maybe asking 10 smart questions. Wisdom goes up a couple of notches because wisdom is asking one deeply refined question and coming back it's about two to the, the, the, the importance of asking a really deeply refined question.
To, to get to that [00:32:00] level of thinking of deep wisdom is, and listening and empathy different. You mentioned about it's this philosophy. I really believe in called contextual leadership and within contextual leadership as the war that's going on around us. But within that is I find that great leaders have supported self-awareness they appreciate the impact that I have on others and how they can influence others in a positive way.
And so that's something for me that's is, is, is, is a real journey of which I'm curious on around always improving one's understanding and the curiosity of the world around us and what's happening around us, but equally knowing where we are, am taking myself out of that situation, see it for what it is and the ability to go back into that complex world that's changing and to lead in that complex world in a manner in which.
Values-driven and envision lead. And so I think this combination of, [00:33:00] of deep wisdom with self-awareness and of course the trust, the harm, moral fiber, et cetera, et cetera, you know, becoming the bedrock. Of of where we're going to just, you know, something quirky that you were talking about, Dave Kelly, and now I love his YouTube video and Dr.
Doug Dietz on that, if anybody wants to ever see it, it's creative confidence, just go to YouTube. But, but it's actually been proven that as we grow in life is that children at the youngest age are the most curious and the most. And our education and conformal Lifelight, we start to embark on, as we go through schooling and university takes away their creative confidence that they've Kelly speaks of.
And so it's, somehow you've got to get that territory back to you think back a five-year old and be curious back a five-year-old and ask her a really ridiculous question that nobody's asking. Because I can tell you that Elon Musk does it, you know, Steve jobs in his heyday did it, these great innovators and [00:34:00] leaders, you know, did it in their, in their day.
They had other quirks as well, but that's something I think that is also all of us to, to appreciate in ourselves. What does it mean to you to, to oneself?
Scott: Can I put a couple of points there, one other, what does this several one is I think one of the greatest unlocked things that we have in an organization is the collective genius of the people who work there.
Absolutely. That is about how do we unlock that? And now I come from, I love appreciative. And I think that's definitely a model of helping unlock that because it's, it's curiosity and inquiry, but we're working on strengths. What are we good at? What's valuable. How can we contribute? And so those types of things, again, is asking questions that are generative, not negative in the concept of that.
They're designed to create generative thinking and generate solutions and go back. We said about that genius. There was a, I can't remember the name of the guy who was a, he was asked, I think by NASA to create a test in the sixties, fifties and sixties for them too, because they were solving problems. We didn't even know [00:35:00] they had, when they jumped, put a man on the moon.
So I don't know what you're going to try and solve yet. Cause we didn't have it. We'd done it, what problems we're going to come across, but we need people who can solve problems. We don't even know we've got. And that goes back to that, having that creative thinking and he did this test and they used it and it was very successful in selecting the right type of people when he said it's really simple.
So we did the test and he did a longevity study. Five-year-olds 98% of five-year-olds passed a creative genius. Well at the time these same people got to, I think it was like, you never quite remember the figures here to be exact, but they got to about 17 or 14 and the percentage had gone down to about 17%.
And then he gave it to a group of adults, average age, about 31 creative genius. The people who pass at creative genius level was 2%. And I think it goes back to what you say, Douglas and what you're saying about that, that, that learned memory in the lone way of doing stuff. And we have people from the same industry because it creates, it creates same type of thinking, which doesn't that.
And we all are creative. [00:36:00] Everyone. I think we have a very narrow definition of creativity is what we think greater is about arts and science and music. And that that's a part of creative. That's expressing yourself through music, but we are all creative because if you can imagine, you can create and we can.
Oakland: I would agree, Scott and, and I, you know, I had a, I had a boss who retired a four-star general, who so obviously way smarter than I am. But he, he used to tell me, and it goes, goes into getting the ideas out of the people that like, like just said, you know, we're not using the entire organization's experience, their knowledge, their creativity.
And he always used to tell me, oh, a good idea is a good idea. Whether it comes from a private, the lowest ranking person in your organization or a general. And then he'd say by the way, A bad idea is a bad idea. Whether it comes from a private or a general, the highest ranking person in the organization.
And so what he was trying to tell me was use everybody in your organization when you have a [00:37:00] chance. And so, you know, one of the things that I I'm adamant about when I'm in charge of an organization, if I have time, if I got an issue, I've got an idea, I've got something that I'm trying to figure out or come up with a better way to do things.
I call all my junior leaders together. And if I have time in the ability, I'll call my entire organization. If it's small enough and I'll say, okay, here's what I'm trying to do. Here's what we're trying to do. Here's the problem. We, as an organization have throw me some ideas of how we can fix this, how we can do it better, how we can change it.
And then, you know, one of the things that I've figured out over the years of doing that is that I'll take a little bit of this person's idea and maybe a little bit of that person's idea and a little bit of that one. And then I'll throw some of my stuff in. And we actually come up with a good solution.
And the key to that is that when we do that, it's no longer Colonel McCullough solution [00:38:00]or just solution or Douglas as solution. It's our solution. We all got skin in the game. Now we all can't help came up with this solution. So let's work really hard to make it work. And I've, I've found that over the years, that's the best.
That's always worked best for me when when I was in a leadership position to, to dig into that experience and that knowledge of everybody in the organization, rather than just use my experience in my knowledge.
Douglas: It's quite interesting. Cause as you were talking there I was connecting the dots in my mind about what you was, you were speaking of it in that innovation example and design thinking.
And again, you know, Dave, Katie is the king of design thinking and, and, and, and one. Now that you have empathy, which is the beginning stages of design thinking is empathy mapping, getting everybody's views and perspectives into the room, and then align a creative environment and using post-its and LIGO, who knows what else to solve a solution [00:39:00] together.
And it's actually in a way it's got to start going back to being a five-year-old. I've actually be part of an innovation session where at the end of the day we, we, we actually use Lego to, to present it back to the group. You know, what is it that we propose as a new business model in this industry?
And our saw executives are 40, 50 years old. You hadn't touched Lego in 30 years, you know, couldn't stop with it at the end of the day. And it's sometimes you've just got to break free of the stigmas and what's it what everybody has to be seen to be look like as leaders we can, you know, it's important to show your vulnerability as a leader and, and again, you know, that whole philosophy.
The sum of the whole is greater than the sum of the digits, you know is, is always so powerful and, and you hit it, you hit it, you hit the nail on the head with that analogy.
Geoff: I, I like that. What you've just said diverse. And then that reminds me when I went to idea's office and playing around with the Lego bricks.
Right. And, but I think when you start talking about [00:40:00] creative creativity and in particular Dave Kelly's and Tom Kelly's book around creative confidence, which when I read it back in, in state really inspired me. I think we have got a problem. I think the problem is not on the creativity side.
It's actually on the confidence side. And I think that the cost of confidence, right, is the big. And in the last two years, 24 months, I say that that cost has gone up even further because the erosion of confidence makes trust way more important, right?
Scott: In the, in the whole, whole scheme of things.
Geoff: We need to necessity trust and the trust multiply, which, which I've always spoken about.
And the action to be more effective is about rebuilding trust, right.
You know, the, the
whole the whole nine yards. And, and if we don't the cost becomes even greater. So from where I'm standing, you know, I'm talking about [00:41:00] that person Oak in the room at the back of the room who never gets noticed, it's putting his hand up and just that, not, not, not even to have the ability to be able to ask a question to senior leaders, Right.
It has to go through several tears and the men they're never heard. Right. You understand, or, or the ability where you're working remotely. And there was a lack of creativity, but they're sitting behind a screen. So again, but even, even middle tier management, they don't want to speak out because they're not confident enough that they're going to be heard or understood.
And then by the time it gets all of that, mish-mash gets convoluted to senior management and then goes to board. It's no big surprise the border uninspired, right. Because there's a lack of engagement, but there's a lack of engagement because there's a lack of confidence.
Scott: I think going back to that ability to engage, [00:42:00] if you could say to somebody, you can hopefully fill it in, like you've done and put people into a meeting which is called and say, I want your opinions, but if you've never, or rarely in your day-to-day thing, enabled that to have.
It's not going to all of a sudden happen because you're in a meeting you're asking people to speak up. Absolutely.
Oakland: I think that's why you gotta be out there. Leaders have to get out there and talk to people. I mean, if you don't do that on a re on a semi-regular basis, as often as you can, then you're right Scott, but it just words, then it's not action.
It's not that nobody trusts you, that you are actually you care.
Geoff: And just one more on that. I agree wholeheartedly with that. And I remember when I was a chief exec. Public listed company. I used to do the coffee run and it was, I said to the secretary at night, I'll get my own coffee. I go to the coffee machine, pour my coffee, go around the whole flaws and office areas.
I talked to people and they were shocked that I that's, you spoken to them even more. [00:43:00] So I'd go out to the, to the county offices, I'd go doing exactly the same. Right. And I had an open door by the way. I also had an open door policy that anybody could come into my office. Anytime I would start work for them.
Sit them down, start to listen and understand what was going on. Sorry, Douglas, I don't want it to say that it was I think, I think that that needs to be more apparent, but you need a higher level of emotional intelligence in order to do that because somebody that has no emotions. More on the IQ academia side, you'll find the office will be closed and they'd be looking at the spreadsheets.
You know that right? The wisdom intelligence is making the right decisions. Douglas, you know that right to making the right decisions. You could actually say that with some of the things that we've talked around, listening, empathy, understanding communication could fall within spiritual intelligence, but you're never going to get to trust if you can't actually encapsulate or [00:44:00]integrate those, those intelligence practices into human behavior.
Right. So
Oakland: I agree. Sorry, I cut you off Scott.
Scott: I'm just the host. That's fine. So it's usually far more important what you said, doctor and I quite liked what you said. Talk to us about that. So when I was in the prison service, every time you walked onto a landing, you were never sure what it's gonna be. Yeah, every day was different.
So you couldn't be the same. So I think in those environments, what you really learn, what you really learn is that dynamic assessing what is this like compared to what it was like yesterday? What is this lad I'm talking to now? What was he like yesterday? Is there a difference? Do I need to alter how on what I'm saying to him to gain that influence over this person so that he can comply with the instructions voluntarily and willingly?
As you said, I did, some of the things you do is if there's a machine gun post over there, somebody shooting us. Do you mind going and [00:45:00] stopping the police have been very naughty. You're asking people to do some real high risk situations. There are life threatening. So again, in the prisons, when you're working that sort of environment, not, not as high risk as running a machine gun, but every day was slightly different.
Oakland: Yeah. I would argue on, on a day-to-day basis, your, that job is much more difficult than most of us in the military, but anyway, but
Scott: not probably not. We do have some programs over here was the presence that's. Most of it would be I was drinking tea, having a chat and somebody walking in every now and again, the reality of it is it's completely different to what people say, but yes, you walk in, you're on a landing with 70 people.
You're unlocking them, come on, let's go and get your breakfast, going your dinner, whatever it is, go to work. And you've got somebody who's they want into a life sentence, and you've got somebody who's in day 15, have a 30 day sentence next to each other. So you can't be the same with those two people to get that compliance and together.
And they've got to is about that calibration. I call it calibration and we calibrate in the moment with [00:46:00] what we're trying to achieve. Where are we? And then being able to read, what am I doing now? And are these actions helping me or hindering this event? Or what do I need to do different to create a different outcome?
So it's really has been quite attuned to looking at this person, if they react in the way I expected to, if not, why not? Cause they normally do. Okay. Maybe the and we didn't know because you haven't been offering, well, maybe he's been told his mom's just died as, I mean, he's been refused access to, he wasn't allowed to go to the funeral and then you're in the morning and morning and he's, he's not in the morning is he, he's not having a good day.
So you've got to really quickly sort of do that analysis and that sort of live dynamic assessing in that situation. And then I'm in it. What influence am I creating in this situation? Am I helping or hindering? And I think that goes back to what you were saying. Doug is having that, that real intuition in that fine awareness of impact.
And if you go into supermarkets or shopping mall, You can see where generally [00:47:00] we don't have it. Cause what we do is get focused on what we want our targets. Like I want to go and get the, the, the the middle car. I'm going to go get the, the the meat or the food I want. And we just go towards where we're going.
And we force other people to get out of our way, because we're not aware of what they're trying to do in that environment. Just watch people in a supermarket and see how enclosed in our little environments we are. We don't really look at the potential impact of our actions. And I think sometimes that's the same as when we're in work and we're leading people.
If we can just create that, help people create that sort of looking outside and Seneca. I want to get there, but this person's going to cross that. If I do that, I wouldn't stop them so I can just wait, let them go. And I can go. And therefore I'm working effectively with that person aware of where they're going and I'm not interfering in that, but I'm still achieving my goal.
So I just thought at that time, Scott, just
Douglas: I'll ask you a question. If you don't mind. We reversed the roles here. Let's make it fun. I would think also in that environment, which is enormously complex probably I agree with Oak it's probably a lot [00:48:00] more complex than, than what most people face in most leaders face is the importance of, of composure and not reacting too quickly.
And because sometimes human beings and as leaders, we, we, we can react quickly and certainly if your buttons are pushed and if it's a sensitive topic, but you know, one thing that is a great trait of a leader is the ability to have composure, to assess the situation and then to deal the situation. And I would think that's something that you've developed in that approach every morning, when you walk in there is to expect the unexpected, but to compose yourself, Then, you know, go through that process in your mind of how to approach an individual or a community of people.
But probably in your case, I would think you even more you even more developed than, than most leaders, because of just that the complexity of this
Scott: environment. Yeah. I think it gives you the opportunity to really, and the thing goes back to what we're all [00:49:00] saying about that self-awareness and to be a good leader, because there are people in that position who wouldn't be flexible, who didn't react, who didn't stop, maybe not aware of that awareness and the impact.
So the environment gives you the opportunity to raise the level of awareness to raise those skills, but it's still whether you choose to or have the capacity and the curiosity to actually develop and adapt within it. I still think as a personal choice, there is the option and I've seen people who worked in prisons and they were, they were that's it, the rules, and there's no flexibility with them at all.
And I've seen people with. And they have massively adaptive in the way they work and they're highly effective. So I think the, the, the environment provides the opportunities down to the individuals, capabilities, capacities, and willingness to whether to take that onboard and to then develop on that, which comes back to what you're saying about being that.
And I think Jeff as well, that hide heightened level of awareness and wisdom and do an end sort of develop [00:50:00] from
Geoff: that level of, of wisdom. For sure. Right. But it's also, you, you know, you're not going to get to loyalty with others unless you providing a solution.
Scott: No, and I, I found the most effective way when I was working with prisoners is to say, get them on your board in the journey, because it's not about me telling them what to do.
Cause you've got rules. You've got regulations. You can tell them, you can tell them all day if you wanted to. And it's fine. You would probably get a level of compliance and you do get a level of compliance, but really the British, the British legal system, our whole judicial system actually sits on that concept of cooperation.
It doesn't sit on a concept of authority and power. It really does sit on cloud because you think about it. You're working on landing. When I was at Bellmarsh, I think we had some nine 11 staff and 200 and 300 prisoners, 250 prisoners, 11 staff, [00:51:00] and we get, you've got gates. You've got process. You've got procedures, don't have guns.
We don't hold guns. Where we had was when I first started, whether we had a wooden stick.
Geoff: Just for the record. I mean, Douglas and Oak, probably not aware of Belmarsh. She wants to explain what Belmont she is. Cause it's a very high security prison.
Scott: It's unusual in a high-school prison because it also does what we call local stuff as well. So there's about, I think from memory is about eight high security prisons.
So they, they hold the high risk. So there's special units within all of them that are designed to do that. And so Belmont is one of them based in Southwestern, Southwest London, which it will ask them. So I worked there for a few years which is interesting. I also found that working with, cause I've also worked with every category of prisoner that exists in the UK.
So people on drug rehab, people on short-term programs, people on long-term. And I think that's where I learned collaboration as well, working on a wing where we had people who were on really long-term drug rehab programs, because their stories were horrific. These people had serious, [00:52:00] serious drug habits.
And we worked in partnership with the prisoners on that unit, the charity that was running the program and us as the prison staff. And we had to find a ways how we could sit down and collaborate and cooperate to make that unit work. If we went through the normal processes and say that and stuff. So yes, we had discipline.
Yes, we had to do that, but we had to look at ways of applying it in a way that would still reach what we were meant to be doing. I rules and regs, but also helps support them rehabbing and finding. So it was massively working with multiple stakeholders and collaborating and finding ways forward, which was really interesting as well.
Oakland: And I would argue that, you know, we go back to trust. I mean, those people have to have some kind of trust that you do have some.
You know, you, you want them to succeed. You want this to work. So, so they have to have that trust in you as well. If you want them to voluntarily [00:53:00] do things like you're saying, instead of the authoritarian, you're going to do this because that's the rules and that's the law. And if, if you can build that trust, like you're, you're saying that you did then then I think that you're, you're on that right track.
And it goes back to the trust piece stuff that, that Jeff talked about in the very beginning. I agree with that.
Scott: Yeah. I think trust is the basis of it all. But if working with them like holders, and if you can get an agreement, you're coming from someone from a different angle, goes back to what you were talking about, Jeff.
And you've got to trust what people are doing, but you've got to go into that collaboration with that empathy to say, I've got to understand where you're coming from and you need to understand where I'm coming from and how can we work together to get that common goal? That's right. We need to ensemble the common goal is to have that language of per.
Okay. Now what I've done, I can't bring everything. I've got lots of stuff. I've got to bring into this. It's got to work that I am there's rules and regs. I've got to follow the stuff you have to follow, and they're not mutually exclusive and they don't combat each other as how can we get [00:54:00] those to work together in a way that makes sense.
So you could, you could, that's a great Lego activity, by the way, you can get, these are my rules and regs and Lego. There's your rules and regs and Lego lets how we can put these Lego pieces together and create this thing that we're trying to do. And I think that was, that was really interesting sort of 18 months or two years, 18 months, I think I've worked in that unit 18 months of my career.
Really interesting. And it sort of, as I say, a lot of what you were talking about, different people, different perspectives, being open with each other, empathy, sharing what you could give and parts of yourself to get parts back as well. So as a leader, it's not just about the business and transactions.
It's about that emotional connection. So you gotta be willing to give something of yourself to get something back. Got. You're a person, the people you're working with people it's about what do you give to yourself and then find out what you're comfortable giving to your, about to yourself, to other people find your boundaries, and then you're comfortable going into those conversations.
Not thinking about it. It becomes more natural.[00:55:00]
Geoff: Yeah, I agree. I guess I got a final thought. Which for me, there are an awful lot of risks at the moment, Brian, and, but the risk has always been around forever. I think leadership is not saving just for business. I think I like to talk about leadership at home. I like to talk about leadership in business.
I like to be, think about leadership in life. And I think that with all of that said, I think we are responding strategically to a very interesting phase of life at this moment. Which needs, as we said earlier, Douglas, it needs a high degree of creativity, I think authenticity I think openness.
Right. But more importantly, a willingness, right? So that willingness to look beyond the obvious in addressing the issues and the threats. But I think with all that said, I think there are, there are opportunities for, for, for the minority [00:56:00] that decide Darwinism, flexibility, change adaptability, and more importantly, courageous leadership at that point to be able to include others and take them on a journey which will be inclusion, but also to better, better, a better place of growth development.
And, and. With empathy, you get happiness. People are happy. People won't be a part of something that they're happy and they've got growth, they got mindset, they got attitudes. And they got learnings. And I think all of that is in
Scott: incredibly important. Okay. Thank you very much, Jeff. Okay. If you got a final sort of Roundup you would like to finish with,
Oakland: I, again, I think this has been fantastic and, and I agree with everything that's been being said. I think we got to get to the point where people, you know, as we commissioned brand new lieutenants out of here, [00:57:00] which is our job, the last thing I tell them is go out there and make a difference because leaders make a difference in everybody's in, in, in every day, leaders have the potential to make a difference in the people's lives that.
Influence in the organization. And I think that's the, that's the difference between the average leader and the really good leader is the very good leader goes out there with the attitude that they want to make a difference, a positive difference in people's lives. And then the organization every day, you want to do that.
And if you, if you enter every day doing that as a leader, then you're building the trust. You're building the culture and you're actually going to help people. And if you help people, like Jeff said, if they're happy, they're going to do more for you. They're going to, they're going to like being it there and in your organization.
And, and it just goes back to that. Cause this is a privilege being a leader is a [00:58:00] privilege. And I think some leaders have forgotten that, that it is a privilege that you get to lead other people. And so you should make an effort to make a difference in those people's lives, a positive difference every day.
Douglas: Yeah, I think, first of all, thanks to, to yourself and Oak and Jeff are wonderful and really thought provoking conversation. I actually just want to continue. We Oak left off and really to say that I think each and every person in the world through the last two years, I'm sure. And I speak for myself, but I'm sure we all in the same space as deeply reflected on your life.
What makes you happy? Why does it make you happy times when you've been done and come to when you've been up? And I think for me, it's, it's made the world, whether it's through the great resign and, and things like that, but people want to be here. We don't, nobody comes to work to not do well. And so for me, I think we've got to the silver lining after these last few years and in many, but one of them I think is that I think [00:59:00] people have come with a stronger self awareness of what makes them happy, what drives them, and they laugh and their purpose and the opportunity for leadership to seize this and to really harness that energy that comes with that happiness and to align it.
And I would sign up, sum it up to say is leadership has an opportunity to burn the free fuel of this awareness of deep purpose on the bedrock of trust. And to be happy because that's what we want to be. Thank you. Lovely.
Scott: Thanks very much. I would just like to say, oh God, sorry. You can just say all I would just say, so thank you very much for gents for joining. It has been an absolute honor and a privilege, and the first time I've had three people on. So thank you. So there's me dipping my toe into the sort of head talk type territory. So hopefully it was a running excuse, any mistakes or errors I made on the way my view on leadership is to, for leadership and trust is two simple questions or two simple things to look at trust the look at the word is trustworthy.
[01:00:00] It's not trust it's trustworthy. So why questions? And it's what you do every scene. Again, single interaction you have with people influences that. So my question to lead is when I do some coaching occasionally, so I'll ask a simple question. What are you going to do today to demonstrate you are worthy of somebody's trust?
Geoff: And just to finalize on that, if you have you find somebody, you know, and I think we should be more caring. Yeah, like Douglas said, people have been through a lot in the last 24 months. If you can make one significant change to one person you've effective, positive change. Right. And that's surely what leadership is all about, right?
We're with the people that we have to reach out to people we have to care to be. We need more care in society. I don't mean look, when people are down, it's not just about making the next paycheck. It's about supporting loving and helping people. [01:01:00] Okay. Through all times when, when they're in, when they said celebrate, but celebrate when they're having a good time.
But when the down surely we should be there for our colleagues, our friends and the people that really matter to us most. And I think that that's an important role for lesion
Scott: compassion. Yeah, it's all bad. All right. Again. Lovely. Thank you very much. And thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you very much for listening.
Oakland: Thanks Scott. Appreciate it.

How Might We Convert Our Knowledge Into Online Learning

My Guest this episode in Marie-Louise O'neil and she discussed how she used her experience and knowledge to create online learning and build a community.
Marie-Louise is equipped with a breadth of design knowledge and more than 16 years’ industry experience. I studiedpackaging and branding at university. Since then I've created everything from logo design, social mediatemplates and website design in the digital space, to printed brochures, adverts, banners and packaging.
 
Marie-Louise LinkedIn- https://www.linkedin.com/in/marielouiseoneill/
Marie-Louise Website - lovelyevolution.co.uk
 
Transcript
Scott: [00:00:00] hello and welcome to the latest edition of how might we on this episode, my guest is. Marie Louise. And we're going to be talking today about how might we convert our knowledge into online learning. So welcome hello and welcome to the latest edition of how might we would you like to Marie Louis? . Would you like to introduce yourself?
Marie-Louise: Yeah.
Hi, thank you. So yeah, I'm Marie-Louise from lovely Evolution and I specialize in branding, design and CANVA so a little bit about my business. I do design one to one's branding, so creating logos in layman's terms, and also I train people on how to learn, how to [00:01:00] design and create within Canva.
And I have a sort of working strap line that I sometimes use from crap creations to competent in CANVA so that that's me in a nutshell,
Scott: I quite liked that strap line and it's also, I spent hours working and then just got nowhere very fast. So so it's interesting to say, so you start helping people to do it.
So it'd be interesting to talk about your journey from obviously working one-to-one with people to realizing that or identifying that you can actually generate some learning content to help people become better at it themselves rather than you being doing it.
Marie-Louise: Yeah, well, it was a bit of a happy accident because I discovered CAMBA back in 2017 another client of mine said, have you heard about this thing?
And I had to look at it and thought it would work really well as part of my workflow, how I worked with my clients because it's all very well good [00:02:00] creating a fancy pants logo, and then what do they do with it? And I work with a lot of small businesses and I want to rather than be like, oh, well you have to come to me for every single little tiny change.
Where possible. I like to enable my clients to be able to either do it themselves or work with the VA. You know, certainly in the context of say social media where things are very fast paced. So I don't have the time to sort of do it in Photoshop and change it every time they want. And you and you post and certainly Photoshop and you know, whether this, or.
Yeah, professional design programs can be a bit clunky and a bit difficult and overwhelming to learn for, you know, the average person. So I was using it as part of working with my clients. And I was having more and more people going, well, I want to learn how to do it, you know, can you, can you teach me?
So I did a couple of free CANVA workshops for my local library in north Hampton. As part of being a [00:03:00] guest expert at the business and IP center North Hampton share. And and I was like, oh, well, there's something in there. So then I ran my first paid for workshop two years ago, it came up on Timehop quite nicely Facebook, yesterday, or the day before I was like, oh wow.
I hired a buffet as well. You know, it was like real people. And I thought that was great, but running an in-person event, you know, and one-off workshops are their own special beast. And I thought, well, you know, we're, we're already living in this sort of more global, international way. I was already doing a few bits and bobs on zoom.
And I really wanted to move my training online. So in January of 2020, I set up an online monthly membership where reserving training you know, like a 13, 30 to 40 minute training on a particular canvas tool or [00:04:00] like template and really breaking it down in my own kind of unique way of just telling you as it is, there was no kind of like trying to be perfect.
I wanted that audience participation, so they were kind of live events, but they. So I've got this fun curve, like a year and a half worth of training that I then went on to repurpose and I'm kind of relaunched as a group membership so that I could have a bit more flow to how people were being trained.
And so yeah, so it's, it's been a bit of an evolution for me because I rebranded myself planning to, you know, specialize in logo, rebrands and all of that. But in the meantime, I was getting really known for Canva. Hashtag CANVA girl and stuff like that. I didn't coin that way. And and I was like, well, there's something in it.
You know, not very many people. Certainly at the designers that I know locally that I was networking with really had [00:05:00] embraced CANVA like I did. So it was a really nice and fairly unique at the time combination of my years and years of design experience. You know, I'm a trained designer combining that with a really easy to use tool like CANVA.
And so it's been a really great combination. And for me, it's not, I feel that my training is not just about here's, how to use CANVA, you know, like it's, there's loads of there's loads of stuff on YouTube and stuff out there. You know, free resources for me, it's about trying to impart what I've learned. I'm really helping my clients to really develop that design eye.
So when I'm showing them something, I'm not just going well, you know, there is the tool aspect and features of it. That's part of it, but it's also about, you know, well, you need to consider lining things up and making sure there's a bit of negative space here, you know, is there balance to visit the, the design [00:06:00] and you know, is there a focus?
So I'm really trying to help them to hopefully understand what comes well, to me is second nature because I've been doing it so long, but it's not something that as a non-designer you would know automatically, and even using these great Canva templates, you know, necessarily understanding once you change things, if you change them too much, that you can't.
Water down the impact of the design or, you know, it's so it's no longer looking so great.
Scott: Okay. So you found this interesting, the journey you've gone through. So, so you went online before COVID
Marie-Louise: I was ahead of the game. Yes. And it was, it was part of my strategy even before then. I kind of come full circle really because I had been the summer.
So I guess, what was it about August time of 2019? I'd gone on a three-day workshop about [00:07:00] how to create an online course. And it was, it was also about the kind of marketing of it, landing pages, what kind of things you're training on. And so I sort of started working on that, but I just didn't like sitting in front of a camera, prerecording, all this training.
I didn't have that magic though. I have. When I even like one-to-one, you know, having a chat like this, but also, you know, working in a design context or training someone going, here's how you do this, whether it's one or a group. And so I kind of put down the idea of being an online course and that's where the membership kind of came into play.
And then I came sort of, as I said, full circle of going well, I've got this bank of prerecorded stuff, you know, it's, it was recorded live, but this is great content. How can I repurpose it and repackage it? So I've then kind of ended up with this hybrid model where there is stuff that people can watch on B play and, you know, [00:08:00] prerecorded, but also there's that group support so that I could get my fix of seeing people and helping them, you know, helping them have that aha moment.
So it works really well.
Scott: So do you think because of the stuff you were talking about it, it's not just about understanding how to use Canva. That's important to you, but it's about people gaining now, what do you call it? More of a designer eye, so to speak. So do you find that being with people and letting them play around with it and giving them feedback and working with them directly helps develop that.
Marie-Louise: Yes, because the way I give feedback, like, because you, what I discovered was that, you know, people will go away and try and do something. And when, you know, people have different levels of experience and confidence in using some form of new tech, you know, some people thought it work where they're like afraid to do anything, you know, trying to do something on [00:09:00] zoom, you know, like, how do I share my screen is, is really challenging for them because they're not used to it once they've done it a few times, then it's a bit easier and they can work out and it's fine.
And the same is a tool with canvas. Some people really take to it like a duck to water and others really struggled to do really simple things. So there's an element of, they've got so kind of practice with it and it's, you know, watching some training, whether it's mine or someone else's and break it down into composite.
But then once they got used to the kind of functionality of that program and doing from, you know, going from a, to B, is it where it's then elevating that of going well, how do we then make it look good? How do we make it appeal to our target market? So that's the kind of the upleveling that I bring is that I'm going well.
Okay. Well, so you've done this design. You're not sure about it. So yes, from a technical design point of view, I can explain how [00:10:00] you can improve it, but also don't forget, you need to appeal to your target market, you know, is it on brand, I using your brand colors? So it's all these things that are really important that people may not realize they need to be using within, you know, anything that they're creating.
Scott: From a training or a training. Cause obviously we've had some discussions before and I come from a learning and development or training backgrounds and you don't, and we had this discussion about how you've come along this journey. And one of the things you've talked about there is that the, the sort of the journey that you want people to take and breaking things into composite parts and saying, okay, to get to where we want them to be at the end, they need to be able to do a, B, C, D E.
And what is the best order in those to be scheduled, to have the most impact. And I don't think sometimes people don't take time to think about that sort of the learner journeys they call it or that, [00:11:00] that sort of, so if you want somebody at the end to produce something in Canva, that's going to be for their organization or for that, for their business, whatever, as you say, what's the important aspects that we need to do first.
So the foundations, and then what can we do? And then I just say every step is an announcement and built on the previous.
Marie-Louise: Yeah, because people aren't going to come into canvas for the first time and suddenly create an amazing piece of design. And even those people that feel really comfortable or love Canva, and they're like, it's amazing, you know, again, from my, you know, design point of view, there's things that could be improved.
You know, I'm not talking about being rude about that. You know, they just don't know what they don't know, but there are certain things that once they learn how to do that, Then they're like, oh, okay. You know, like theory, well, not even theory, but sort of rules on, you know, what to do with your text and things like that.
But you know, when someone is first starting out, there's no point bombarding them with, well, you need to do this, this, [00:12:00] this to meet your design look good. It's about, okay. Here's how, here's where to find this shape and adding this shape and changing the color. So there's, there's different stages of where people are.
For me, like a gap in my offering is creating something that is very focused at like someone who knows like nothing about camper. They know they want to do it. They've kind of tried, but they felt really overwhelmed. So it's, it's that kind of gap there that I want to, but I haven't. I'm focusing on my group program at the moment at getting that really going, which is for those people who are, you know, they can be quite new to CAMBA, but the type of stuff that I'm doing is not geared up to someone necessarily not knowing anything about Canva, but, you know, they can go on it.
But for me, knowing the kind of the specific Challenges that people who are very new to something and maybe are a bit afraid of how to use it. It there's sort of [00:13:00] some challenges there. So I will be, I've parked that idea. It's something that I want to do, but I, I want to sort of work out how best to deliver that.
You know, whether that's in a series of workshops or whether it's like its own like mini program or something that kind of plugs on to my existing group program. I don't know. I haven't sort of figured it out yet. It's
Scott: still going there. Just a quick question is that we've obviously we've talked offline a few times and one of the things that's quite interesting to say, so if you say you've been doing this for quite some time now, so how you deliver your face-to-face workshops or the online versions of what you do, how has that evolved for.
Was it January, January, February, last year to now, or has you've been doing it for just about 18 months now?
Marie-Louise: So of January of this year, I introduced an additional sort of segment two or a sort of plugin to my, my offering. So [00:14:00] I sort of, I had a fair bit of trialing different that the frequency of the trainings.
So for initially I think I was doing it fortnightly. Then at one point I was doing for quite some time, I was doing them three times. They were kind of weekly, but there were three trainings plus a Canva Q and A, which was open to everyone. So people could in theory, attend weekly. And that was useful for me to sort of get all that information out there.
But long-term, I felt that we've now reached a point where to have like the frequency of that kind of amount of trainings, not viable, not only for me, but also for those kind of in the moment. So in January of this year, I decided to make it a monthly training. But after the training, we have a bit of a comfort break and those that want to stay on can have like this classroom sort of scenario.
So it's a virtual classroom, but people can stay and I, and they can then [00:15:00] put into practice themselves. So the training portion is me talking through in my kind of you know, very kind of matter of fact, sort of, kind of sometimes bit of a plancha. I'll make some great crap jokes and you know, talk them through, you know, I'm delivering that information.
And so if they're watching a replay, they can, of course, pause it, implement it, and then, you know, press play and continue and work along. But the classroom side of it was to be able to get, cause the thing that I know from my own self of doing anything new or creating something, actually it's that getting started.
So by introducing that classroom element, it meant that I could help them to, you know, set up that, that first off, you know, they, they no longer have that blank screen. So that they can go, right. Okay. I click here, so I would take it, you know, take it in terms of those that wanted to take part and to say, okay, right now, [00:16:00] click on this and click on that.
And that was particularly helpful for some of them or kind of less confident members. And I think it was very, very useful and it taught me a lot about teaching as well. So that was really good. I think it is, it's important to have that chance to be able to implement what you've learned.
And if I can do that in a kind of classroom type scenario, I can then see them do that and help them where maybe they'd be too afraid to ask that question. Cause it's, you know, when they're doing it. So where is that? That fit there? You know, where's that tool so I can talk them through it and they're all learning from each other.
Scott: Okay. So I can do some, I can give you some. Learning theory now what was actually happening in what you're doing. So having the instructional aspect of it is cool. And that, that's fine. I think, and one of my, my, my areas of is when we do stuff for people, the instructional aspect is [00:17:00] sometimes the easiest to do, because it's our knowledge.
We can dump it into it. We can dump it on to a content that makes sense that we can look at making it engaging, and we can look at making it fun. As you say, breaking it down into parts that people can understand in a way that we're not doing sort of overloading them. But there's three things that you've really built into that at the end in those classroom things.
And one is experiential learning or experiential learning is helping people learn through experiences. So you're saying to somebody I'm going to support you. You're going to do something so play around with it, have a go once you've had to go, come back, talk to me, or if you want to help as you're doing it, because that's how most of us learn.
If you think back when we're, when we're at work and we're learning, we tend to play around with stuff and learn as we go.
Marie-Louise: That's certainly what I found when you know, getting to grips with you know, my design programs in the past, you know there was sort of certain tools of beaches within it that I don't use very often.
So I know that they're there, but until I need them, I'm not necessarily going to go away and learn everything [00:18:00] about a you know, this mammoth of a design program, but it's knowing that, oh, I want to do this and can I do it? And how do I do it? Go away and Google it. Work at find the kind of the blog resource that explains it or a video, put it into practice and do it.
And then if I do it a few times in a reasonable amount of time, it's more likely to stick in my head. So that's what I've experienced. So that's why it was important to me to integrate it. Otherwise it's all very well, someone sitting there watching a series of me training, but until they do it themselves, it's not going to have that same impact.
Scott: Okay. So there's another thing in there called just in time. So you'll work out. So you say you've got these there's learning material that you do this, this, this it resources that people can now access. So so there's a bit like, as you say, Google or YouTube where [00:19:00] people say, how do I do? And they ask them when they need to do something.
I don't ask that question always six months time. I might have to do something to help. How do I do it? They'll ask when they, when they come across that. So they might be thinking, I know there was something we did about the session. I know it's in there, but I haven't used it for a few months, so they can just Google it.
So it's say having your content searchable and accessible afterwards enables what we call just-in-time training. So people can access stuff at the point of need.
Marie-Louise: Yeah. And that was something that I did implement within my monthly membership of trying to collate the the links to all the re the, the training videos in a As possible way.
I mean the, the future plan is to be using something, you know, some sort of online course provider or platform, but for now I'm just utilizing Facebook and having private Facebook groups and you know, it's, it's doing what I can right now. I'm kind of, but [00:20:00] it is, you know, there's still stuff that you can do.
So it was pretty basic, but I created a Google spreadsheet that, you know, people could search within it to a degree, you know, it had its pitfalls, but it was trying to, to do what I could with the resources at the time. But that's something I'm conscious of, of making sure that people can easily find what they, what they need.
But often people just like, how do I do that? Just go tag them in the relevant video, because that's where the, I guess customer service bit comes in. People can search it just within the Facebook group. There is that search ability to a degree, you know, there's obviously have you picked the right search term and stuff like that, but yeah, that was something that I was also conscious of.
Scott: Okay. The other aspect you've built into it is what we call social learning. So giving people, the app, the opportunity to learn together in groups, which is really powerful. So it's not all [00:21:00] about I'm the trainer, you're the student and I'm going to teach you everything is about encouraging people to.
Ask each other questions as well. I learned together. So somebody say, how'd you do this? And I think we've all done it in class where somebody said understood a concept quicker and they'll help the person sat next. Again,
Marie-Louise: that's something I've experienced, you know, in more recent times, as well as the whole night at school.
And I need the best and stuff like that. But I've invested in group coaching over time and some of that's included one-to-one as well. But I found the most powerful bit was actually the group coaching portion where, you know, sometimes you'd have the issue and you would share that and, you know, we'd get the opportunity to add that out and get some advice and suggestions.
But also being able to give advice to others, you know, or hear other people's problems and pain points and be like, oh, okay. I can relate. I was there a couple of months ago or, you know, and this is how I got through it or just you know, so yeah, that, that shared experience [00:22:00] or, or learning from each other's mistakes or experiences for me is really powerful.
Scott: So it sounds like when you're setting up. Changed in some, some of the delivery you've done, but what you're using is your experience of being of learning, which we all have done our entire lives at some point or other and taking the bits that worked for me. So I want to make sure that's in there. Yeah. I learned this way.
This is how I learned this. I found this related to the group coaching. I found that really powerful the ability to get hold of content as, and when I need it and to break things down into manageable chunks. So I think there's a, there's something called cognitive load, which is the amount of information we can actually process.
And there is a risk if you're an expert at something or, you know, a lot for you, it's not a lot of information and you can just information dump onto people. I think you've used the word overwhelmed. And it's really easy to do if you're an expert or been into a field for a long time, because it's stuff you [00:23:00] just know because you've, as you say, you've been dealing with this or bits and pieces and you do it intuitively.
Marie-Louise: Yeah, well, that was something that I've been looking at how I can help the the, the members of my group programs that I recently launched that there's it's quite small, but it's looking at, you know, where they're at, where the, when and where they are with regards to like learning. And as far as I'm aware, they haven't started yet.
And it's like, okay, well, that's fine. Some of them, like, one of them I know has experienced some personal staff. Another one I made sure to have some one-to-one to them to get to know them a bit as well, whilst the group is quite small, but for me, I'm like, okay, well, There'll be ready when they're ready to sort of access it.
But in the meantime, what about I break down these training videos that I've already started uploading into the group as guide and the Facebook group, but how about if I sent them an [00:24:00] email fortnightly with each one? So I'm not sending the whole program in one go, but it's a kind of keeping in touch exercise.
It's another way that they can store that information. Cause it can be quite nice to be able to have a designated folder on the, you know, email provider that they can put stuff there. They may not necessarily be like, okay, well I'm going to start doing the program, but they. I guess they can feel supported knowing that I'm thinking of them and I'm delivering that, but it may also encourage them to actually do it because rather than seeing it in the context of the Facebook guides and feeling overwhelmed, I'm delivering it and drip feeding it in a bite sized way.
It's still the same content it's still there. But it's just giving them a different way of accessing it a different delivery method.
Scott: Okay. So several things that we've talked about as we've talked about, like bite-size, which is another concepts, which I won't go into now, then we've talked [00:25:00] about a social learning experiential just in time.
And then I quite liked the way you said, cause I I've, I've noticed it a few times. People say my content is up there, people buy it and they just say, that's it for now? They say you've bought it, then it's your responsibility to do it. But I do think as a provider of learning, it's our responsibility. We have responsibility as well to try to encourage people to consume the content and to do what they've actually paid to do.
So it's not just about people saying I'm on the program and then I'll say right, there you go. There's all the content get on with it.
Marie-Louise: I mean, it was don't pop my values you know maybe for some people. They don't care. I mean, it's, you know, ultimately I can't force people to go and watch what I created and put what I've tried to teach them into practice.
And I will say I get that. Sometimes things get in the way and, you know, you know, there were other things that are maybe [00:26:00] more important in that moment, but I guess it's making sure that I can do everything I can as this learning provider to make sure that I. Being that to help them to learn and looking at different ways to engage them in, in the content and keeping in touch and, and all of that, you know, ultimately, you know, as the program grows, you know, I don't know how, how much level of being able to keep in touch I can do to the same degree.
And maybe that will evolve over time, but certainly, you know, I do want people. To get what they've paid for, but ultimately it is also their responsibility to watch it and do it. But it's, it's trying to get that balance. Isn't it of doing everything you can to make it as easy as possible that there's different learning methods or in terms of by that for [00:27:00] me, I mean that, there's a video.
I'm now sort of working on creating handouts to go alongside it so that there's like a written summary and maybe additional information. For example, I've got a, a unit which is all about creating your own logo using Canva. And that handout is massive. That's one of the ones that I have managed to do, and there was so much more than just.
Here's the logo. Here's how to create it. There was a lot of other stuff that I really wanted people to know about if they were to ever want to create it themselves, that at least I've delivered that information. They may choose not to read it or implement any of that. But again, it's being able to provide information in different formats.
I run it early enough. I don't really like watching videos that much like it, if someone you know, on social media, for example, someone has a video come up. There's that? Oh, how long is it? Have I got time to watch it? I [00:28:00] prefer to read my content. And I think the same is true. If you're just wanting to have a summary of what you've learned, you know, going back to remind yourself of how to do it.
Sometimes you don't want to watch it a full 30, 40 minute video. You just want to be like what the highlights again, you know, and sometimes being able to skim read is better. So. You know, we all have different learning kind of approaches or preferences to absorbing that information. I'm not something that I've learned.
In fact, I learned it on that three day online course that those, you know, people like to absorb that information. Some people like to listen, some are very, there's all the different sensors or something. Some are very light speeding based. So yeah, so I took that into consideration as well until now more recently most of my stuff has been very video based.
Whereas now I'm looking to sort of back that up with those handouts that can be helpful. So those that just want to read it or they want [00:29:00] to download it and have this collation of this information. Maybe even printed out some people like to print out and have a physical copy. So that's what I've taken into consideration too.
Scott: Okay. So it sounds like when that you did this three-day course, they talked about what we call learning. It was about how people learn. Yeah. The science behind that is unfounded. So well the unfounded is, yeah, there are ways we prefer, but there's no guarantee that if you consume data or information, the way you prefer that you are going to learn any better.
Marie-Louise: I think it was in the context more with the marketing side of it though. Not so much in terms of the delivery of the the course material itself. If I remember correctly that bit, but it's that thing of sort of, when you're putting stuff out, you hitting the different ways to, to get that content out there.
Scott: I say some people just prefer, so if I see a video I haven't got along or I'll just say, can I [00:30:00] just put it on, in this, on, in the background, like in the ear? So, or do I read something? And I like reading, I like touchy feely stuff. Cause then I can hold it. I can highlight what bits. Having the opportunity for people to say, to learn in different ways that suits their lifestyle and the way they are as an individual is good.
And I do think there there's, I think people sometimes just go for one medium, whether it's all written or video, whatever. And if you have a combination of both, then it's much more likely that people will actually do it. And to me, and I really agree with what you say is about, yeah, I can't make somebody do what they're paid to do.
I can't make somebody sort of make sure they do the camera and do all this that w that they've been paid to do. Cause they there's a need for them. They just haven't and they, they so they've paid for that. But what I can do is make them using it as easy as possible for them, so that the barriers to them actually taking part and participating in delivering the impact [00:31:00] is, is there is a few as possible.
Therefore they're much more likely to. Yeah, I think thinking about that, what can I do to make this as easy as possible for the people who've paid for it, rather than I've just put it up. There is self directed, which basically means we've taken the responsibility. We're going to give it to somebody else which happens in learning and training.
And I think that's an error. We have a responsibility as well. How can we prepare the people to learn? We make that as easy as possible for them.
And then bit for me is then how can we support them in actually applying what they've learned in a way that's easy for them to do they're motivated to do and give them the opportunities to do. And that's the, that's the last bit of the journey. So I was thinking of the journeys three, what are we doing before?
What are we doing during and what are we doing after
Marie-Louise: a rinse and repeat,
Scott: but to be, yeah, to a degree, and then you can add, you can add things into. [00:32:00] What you're doing with people much more sort of dynamic as well. So you could add, so you could add challenges into, into the course say right, this week's challenge is, and just, and then people might respond to that.
Cause it's a challenge rather than just giving people content, because if they like the channel, that sounds interesting. I'll do that. You could, that you could do things like spot the differences so you can give them two different things and say, spot to spot the differences. What's there. Assuming this.
Marie-Louise: Yeah, I've done that more, not so much in terms of the context of my, any of my paid membership or programs, but certainly in my free Facebook group did a, a spot, the Eastern. Can I game and my son made one for this year. We made one together last year. And so people could, it was like a virtual Easter egg hunt.
Cause we're looking at, in this picture. And then in March for mother's day, I sort of did a sort of create a sort of flowery like design, you know, I kept it quite open, but it didn't [00:33:00] have to be about mother's day. It just had to be very floral and like go for it. Just really have fun with it. And I'd pick a name out of the winner, you know, out of a hat as it were, and they would win a bit of design time with me.
So that was a bit of fun just to see about getting some engagement. So maybe I need to come up with a few more of those.
Scott: Move from the concept of training is that formal giving people, handouts, giving them information. So the objective is them to be able to do what we want them to do, and that the opportunities to encourage people to engage in that and to learn is limitless. And each one of those is a valid learning opportunities.
So if you think about what do I want somebody to be able to do? How can I create something that will help them do that in a way that's fun, engaging easy for them to do and give them a motivation to do it. If you can drop lots of those in, especially if it's around certain. So you might have a, a a [00:34:00] specific tool within canvas that you would like to help people learn to do, maybe do a competition about how many different ways can you do.
I don't know. Cause I don't know Campbell well enough, but there's lots of different things that you could do as part of that, that will get people learning, having fun, but doing it in such a cool. Yeah.
Marie-Louise: Well, I experienced that for con because Canva has got their own Facebook group. And I happened to see that they were doing a hashtag meet with CAMBA challenge and it was creating a video.
I suspect that I ended up not meeting the deadline because there was confusion over the, the deadline time and, and the international. There was a bit of it. I wasn't the only one, but there was me thinking, all right, I've got time. I've managed to make it. And then, and then some were saying, oh, it was closed.
I don't know. But I, it, it still meant that I had two hours putting together this like two minute video, which I'd recorded and put together using [00:35:00] all these different elements to really bring together what camp means to me. And you know, how it's changed, you know, what the impact of it has been and that she, that okay.
Well, whether I've managed to. Please submit it or not. It was something that I used as my sort of intro or pinned video on my YouTube channel. And I shared every, you know, a few places and I was like, well, actually, I'm really proud of that. Because I have a purpose to creating something. I had a reason and a reason to do it and had a lot of fun of it.
So it did push my like video creation skills a bit further. That's
Scott: good. And then you've, you've introduced another word that's important for learning with adults as well as purpose, purpose, and related. Can I relate to it and is there a reason for doing it? So can I relate to that reason as well? Does it make sense to me?
Because as you say, if you've got something, you know, life happens, isn't it. We do other things. [00:36:00] So it's thinking about how can I encourage people to do it and say, give it, create a purpose around it, create a reason for it. Those types of things, if that makes sense.
Marie-Louise: Yeah, it comes back to that thing of, you know, why you doing something, you know?
It's sometimes I need to remind myself of the why even on simple task or, or things that I'm kind of no way should be doing, but I don't enjoy so much if I, if I take in to like, why is this important? It may not be fun, but if I don't do it, what happens? So, you know, it's looking at it from the different aspects, whether it's something that you want to do and it's quite fun or it's, you know, you enjoy it versus something that, you know, it's important, but it comes down to why and kind of links to the purpose aspect.
Scott: Oh, never underestimate the power of purpose. It drives so much human behavior so much understand why we're doing something. I mean children [00:37:00] is their favorite word.
And I, and that requirement for understanding, doesn't go away. As we grow older, we just get told to stop asking. So we still need, or that's still an important driver for us to do stuff. So say, this is what we're doing. This is why, if it isn't, you can make it a competition. You can make it a learner.
You can say, you can ask people to buddy up share something you've done with Canva. You think the rest of the community would find useful.
Marie-Louise: Yeah, I guess it's having a curiosity as well. Maintaining that that's something that children naturally have is that curiosity. And as adults, we can still enjoy that play.
I think there it's, as you said, it's been drummed a bit out of us, but it's something as a creative person, myself, It's really important to be able to recharge and find other methods of way from my laptop to be able to be creative. I [00:38:00] don't do it as much as I'd like, because it's sort of, again, it's that you get kind of hung up with or in that busy mode of day-to-day life, you know I'm a mum, so I've got mum life and all of that.
I run my own business, so there's lots of things going on. But what I noticed is when I take time to do something just, just for fun or just because you can have you can really discover new things or, you know, you're not, you know, really kind of like, oh, I've, I've got to create this and you've got this set idea of what you want.
There's that kind of discovery of an unexpected outcome. And that's just part of learning as well. You know, if you're not kind of, if you're open to possibilities that that kind of word limitless and I think the same is true. You know, whether it's in the context of CAMBA, if you're creating something, you know, yes, you might have a goal of what you want to produce, but you know, it's about being a bit [00:39:00] more open-ended with it and making it the best you can with the abilities you have in that moment at time.
And it kind of comes back to my ethos and, you know, the, everything is a work in progress. I don't know who coined that quote, but it's something that I use a lot in my marketing and it ties in with that, that evolution. Because know we are ordered evolving. It doesn't have to be all perfect first time.
And in the context of learning, you know, that you, you sort of learn a bit and you get a bit better and then, you know, learn a bit more. And it's, it's those sort of almost like the bricks you're laying the bricks one on top of the other you're building on it. You're not just going from, you know, one thing like ground zero to like a, a massive high story building.
It takes time. There's those steps between, and I think the people who were frustrated with what they're creating or doing have, [00:40:00] have maybe forgotten that actually it takes time to learn and implement it, or they've maybe not thought of it in terms of how many hours they've actually used Canva. Cause there's that I read somewhere a couple of years ago.
I think that there's an app. It takes like 10,000 hours or something to become an expert in something. I mean, it varies on like professional stuff like that, but, and I actually hit, at that point, worked out how many hours I'd actually been learning and doing design. I think at that point it was sort of around 25 plus 25,000 plus.
So that, that makes me a super expert. I would definitely, but yeah, and people don't think of that. You know, they forget how many, you know, hours and years of experience of their area of expertise. You know, they didn't become that overnight. They weren't born that way. They might have a [00:41:00] natural affinity for what they're doing, but they've developed that skillset.
And so sometimes they forget with when it comes to Canva that they're like, oh, is this, you know, it's built as this easy to use tool, but not everyone's going to get it first time and not everyone's going to have, you know, the outcome that they, they want, you know, depending on where they're at with their kind of skill set and have they got a natural design eye for it and all of that.
Scott: And there's lots of that. And I that's it. So to me, it's the iterative development of stuff. So if we believe that we'd developed iteratively I one step at a time, can we deliver content to help people on that journey rather than delivering that much content, which nobody can see because I've got a hand gesture, but
Marie-Louise: so the big box.
Scott: A huge amount of stuff to help people get there. What are we doing to make the journey [00:42:00] iterative? Is that generally how we do so we occasionally have an aha moment which creates a leap, get those at anything we do. All of a sudden things just sort of click into place and yourself, you just sort of go up a couple of levels quite quickly, but most of the time, we're just, as you say, taking those one step at a time, developing as we get better, slightly better at something.
And then something three or four things may click and we can do three or four things a lot better quickly. And we have those occasional leaps, but most of the time, it's not most of the time it's iterative steps. So if we think that's how people develop skills, how can we create what we're doing in a way to help people on that iterative journey rather than the big block journey that you tend to see people.
Marie-Louise: Yeah, well, I guess that's the thing is, is being aware of that. I think it's useful to be able to give people the option and that's where sort of allowing people to access the information so that if they want to, they can just go directly to what they want to know about and not [00:43:00]follow that learning path that maybe as a, you know, you know, the delivery you put out there, you know, I've got there is a, in my mind, a logical sequence to what I've, you know, creates the order of training.
But someone else might be like, well, that's all very well good, but I haven't gone through that as yet, but I just want to skip and watch the video to learn how to make a a really good social media post, or I need to create a banner for my Facebook page. How do I do that? What do I put on it? So they can go straight to that video.
So it's, it's getting that balance, isn't it?
Scott: Yeah. I think if we yes, if we predetermined the journey somebody takes on and what we've probably got is we're trying to like a sheep dip, basically. Everyone's got the same. So you go, but that's the cheek dip solution for everybody. And we're not all the same.
So as you say, right, people, people will get aspects of Canva really quickly. Some people have a [00:44:00] few more things to overcome. Other people who've got more of a design idea than others. Other people just say, I'm coming on new course. Cause I like what you do. It gives me access to this material, but I only want to get what I want when I want it.
I don't really want to learn everything. I'm not interested in doing that because it D I just want to know, as you say, I just want to do a band next. I'm going to do a band next week. So I need to, I need to learn how to do that. And then I need to do a post-it and I need to do this, and then they'll learn as they do in it, but they're seeing the practical applications of it.
Cause it makes sense to them at that time. So enabling people to sort of say, right, I've got all this stuff, what's the best way for me to get the best out of it for me, I think that's the questions. I think if we have an audit, there's a risk of people as they put their content in, in a way, and it's predetermined, you've got to do this, you've got to do that.
You've got to do this. And it's a lot of Ellen Lotte training is like that as well. And I think it's online gives us the ability that you've demonstrated of creating that [00:45:00] opportunity for people to just take what they need when they need it in. However they need it. That's ultimately what we're providing, we're providing something for your clients to make because they don't pay for your training.
Marie-Louise: Yeah. I know. They, the, the real power is the the live sessions in the group, setting
Scott: the ability, again, as this go by that experiential testing them questions or feeling safe to do so, but they pay for the impact they pay for what they can do after whatever is they want to do. So if somebody goes to watch a video about a social media posts or a banner Facebook banner, they're not paying to learn, they're paying to have a decent banner.
That's the painful they're paying for the outcome of the impacts. You're just you're training
Marie-Louise: before and after thing, isn't it, you know, before the training or buffer before they've learned how to do it better, that's where they're at. And so it's taking them from a [00:46:00] to B.
Scott: Absolutely.
As somebody who's been through this journey and has created a way of doing it, that's very similar to how you've enjoyed learning in your past, which I think is a really good way of looking at it and saying, what did I, when I learned, how did I learn? And what did I enjoy doing is okay, how can I create the same for my clients rather than having this I've got training course, this is how we're meant to do it.
And this is how it's meant to be done, which goes about looking at it from a supplier's point of view, rather than the consumer's point of view, what would be your tips for somebody who's either just about thinking or has something and they want to make it better. They want to enhance what they've currently got.
What would be your tips for them?
Marie-Louise: Well I think it's, it's about making more don't over complicate things in terms of what you're delivering. Because I'm, there's a part of me, that's all stressing out about uploading further modules within, within my group program. And I'm [00:47:00] like, I haven't delivered that.
I had a kind of schedule in mind, but that she probably the people in the group where they're at and what they're doing, it's not actually that important. They have got some, you know, the first module to be looking through if they want to start accessing it in sequence. But I guess it's that thing of going well, what can I do to make sure that they can start?
And you know, you can always develop an add things in later. So what can you do right now to deliver that information? You know, I've had some, you know, been to some great online workshops where someone has just sat there and impart that information. They not even necessarily had a slideshow. So obviously if you've got a slideshow, which is.
No, the training then obviously making it look nice without putting everything, you know, and the kitchen sink on it. But it it's, I guess it's just about getting [00:48:00] started, you know, because you will learn as you develop. I think people get, so heads-up about how they get perfect and they spend, you know, maybe even years doing.
And then they, you know, they've missed the boat, you know you know, yes, we've got our own ideals of like how we want it to be, you know, there are, you know, maybe there were certainly better ways for me to hold this information. I certainly want to do a bit of editing of these pre-recorded trainings in time.
I'm going to have to rerecord them because they're going to meet your point where canvas moved on enough that it's our date. But it's, it's looking at, okay, well, it, for me, it's an ongoing cycle of improving what I'm doing. So rather than waiting till it's all perfect. It's okay. Well, what can I do to really impart my knowledge in an easy to way, understand, not trying to be perfect with you know, how I turn up, I'm making sure that I do turn [00:49:00] up and that people can get that information.
Scott: So the MVP, the minimum viable products, what is, what is enough for me to, I quite like the said the iterative it's, don't be afraid to experiment, try something. And if it doesn't, if it doesn't bounce with your, with your thing and find out why it doesn't bounce and make that change.
Marie-Louise: Yeah. Because I think you can also spend a long time creating this say online course, and then no one wants to buy it because you haven't done the research.
Maybe if, is there a need or you've not really done the research into your target market, but you know, what problems that you need to solve. So if you've done a bit of testing first or done it on a sort of. You know, a smaller scale, you can then work out well, actually, is this idea worth developing further?
[00:50:00] You can get feedback from those first people. That's what I done all along. You know, everything that I've been creating, I've asked for feedback to, so that I can be okay. Sometimes I've had my own feedback for myself where I'm like, okay, I deleted this. Like I did an introduction to CAMBA workshop last summer.
So we were in lockdown and I had about five people come on and I had an idea of how I wanted it to be what it was priced at, how long it would be. And I didn't quite deliver, cause I did my little talk about the foundations of kind of branding and they didn't want to know that. So there was like 20, 30 minutes of what I think is really important, but actually.
They really wanted to just know about camper. So all the branding stuff was just like, well, that's great, but it's not interesting. So what, excuse me, what I did was arrange another date to do some more time with them so [00:51:00] that they felt that they got that chunk of learning that they really wanted. So I learned from that experience, so what I thought in my mind, what was important and actually what they booked on and what they wanted to deliver to them, there was a slight mismatch.
So I did have that chunk where I was delivered, but there wasn't enough because of the time taken out waffling about funding, which is important, but not in the context. So that's sort of, I guess for me, because I've learned that has maybe in a way made me hold back from creating this product or course, or whatever, it will be aimed at introduction to Canva because I've kind of had.
In part negative experience where I'm like, oh, but it's looking at how I can learn from that mistake or experience, you know, and make sure that I can deliver the best that I can at that point.
Scott: I quite like that the I [00:52:00] doubt it was waffling, but yes, it was, it was not what they wanted to learn at that precise moment in time.
Remember that just in time. So they think, again, this isn't why I'm here and we'd make that predetermined choice. So one, a tip for you is talk to people who have been through the journey of learning Canva and say to them, if there's 10 things you want it to, you would have wished you'd known at the beginning, what would they be?
And then that helps you say the people, what that does is using that information. You're then trying to make sure that what you're delivering is what people actually needed. So as the concept of lean into learning,
what is it? So if 80% of your time at Canva in the first three months you used Canva, what did you, what did, what was the 10 tasks you spent 80% of your time doing? And then what you're doing, you're delivering the skills that people need 80% of the time, [00:53:00] which is what they're going to be spending the majority of their time.
So that's, that's bringing in that sort of lean concepts into what we deliver is content, give people what they need to know to be able to move on. And then as they go along and get more sophisticated and learn more, then maybe it, right. I now need to look at my branding and now need to look at this.
It might be something that's further down the line as important. Once they've learned what they want to do with Cameron, then the design stuff and the branding and everything like.
Marie-Louise: Yeah. And again, it comes back to what I know about branding and design and Canberra, et cetera. I'm coming at it from a different place of expertise and knowledge.
So I I'm talking about branding, so I know it's important, but in the moment where someone is just very new to camper, all of that other stuff is just not so important. So it's it's, I guess it comes back to isn't it about focusing on what the needs of that, that user, what did [00:54:00] they need to learn in that moment?
Being clear about what you're delivering to them and making sure that they get that.
Scott: Okay. So that's what we've been waffling for an hour. Did you know that it's an hour already? So thank you very, very, very much. It's been really informative and I love hearing, I mean, I love learning anyway, but hearing somebody's journey and how you've approached it.
So it shows you, you don't have to be an expert in learning to develop stuff that works because training and learning is common sense.
Marie-Louise: Yeah. And I didn't, I didn't get any, I didn't. Well, aside from, you know, the three-day online course, I was like, so don't, but aside from that, I haven't gone to, I haven't got any formal training to be a teacher or anything like that.
I've just gone. What did I find work for me? Try to do it as best as I can got feedback and improved it.
Scott: That's it that's the only way. Cause [00:55:00] I've been in training for years. I still get feedback off. I do is still develop, develop new things, come in new ways of doing stuff. And it's about engaging that all the time.
As we, as we move on, as you say, what you do for Canva now is okay today. But if they'd bring out something tomorrow, then that aspect is out of date and we have to improve and we have to continue to.
Marie-Louise: Yep. They keep bringing me these speeches.
Scott: This is good in a way it's frustrating because I've got to give up date and stuff, but then if you keep on top of it, then you are the person with the most up-to-date content, which is important as well.
I think people think this is evergreen. I can produce something once and it can resell, resell, resell, resell but just think is how valid is that going to be after a while?
Marie-Louise: It's something that I have to keep in mind. Cause I'm writing a book about Canva. I was asked to do it by some print on demand publishers who specialize in manuals for like specific programs and things like that.
And I didn't want the book to be just about. Here's how to use camper. There is a lot of that aspect, but there's also a lot of what I've [00:56:00] talked about. What what's important to me. And I think is important for the users is learning about design and branding. It's not heavy and lots of, you know, folk down with design theory, but it, there is a bit of that it's kind of design theory light because it's, it's that where there you know, and hopefully that, that side of it, that approach to how I'm sort of trying to deliver that information means that it will have a bit more longevity even beyond when, you know, they update this and new features of that because that's always the case with any kind of program there will be updates.
And I think they will do like new additions every so often, but certainly it's about getting that balance between something that is valuable. And Paul evergreen or totally evergreen, but also having the ability to update it and stay current.
Scott: Okay. Well, I'm looking forward to when that book comes out.
I might actually read it, [00:57:00] although it T I pay people to do my brand name because it's somebody I'm not very good at. I don't have a design as I, and I'm, I'm a great believer in working with strengths. So if I'm not very good at something, I bring people on board to a much better at it than I am, cause it's quicker.
Marie-Louise: And I
Scott: think we probably will do for a while yet. So thank you very much for your time. It's absolute a pleasure talking to you. And obviously any links that you want just click on the links at the bottom to go to your website, et cetera. Okay. Thank you very much.

How Might We Be Us In The Workplace

In this episode, my guest is Simon Payne. Simon is a tattooed, creative, commercial, and highly focused individual who has been working in learning and people development since 2004. He ran an innovative team-building company for 9 years before fully focusing on training, capability, and performance consulting, and people strategy.He’s proud to have worked with hundreds of organisations and thousands of people, across multiple business sectors, worldwide.He’s got my own attitude, style, and very forward-thinking. He thinks it’s vitally important to challenge and not settle for OK.His approach is simple, be human.His special power (I don’t say shazam though – well not often) is getting inside the head and heart of the problem – understanding what makes people and businesses tick – and this means challenging the status quo sometimes.
 
In this episode Simon and I discuss the concept of being oneself in the workplace, not having one persona for work and one for home. We meander through the concepts of growth mindset, leadership, learning, and psychological safety. And maybe it all boils down to being more human in business.
 
03:19 I employ you and not your family
04:29 COVID may well help us look at how we work together
08:05 How do you be more human in business
09:26 It is the system that is broken, not the people
10:46 We can’t grow in fear
12:37 What is the role of trust?
14:51 All the stuff about being human we are good at; so why can’t we do it?
16:18 Team charters
18:04 We all want to have a social connection and a positive environment
21:00 Helping employees set their own objectives
22:57 Peer to peer feedback
27:47 The role L&D can play
35:50 Organisations being brave, and try something different
40:18 Start with yourself and learn from other departments
44:38 Be careful what we define as success
46:01 Businesses are not around forever
49:18 How we can adapt to the new normal of work
57:24 The role of leadership
 
 
Simon’s LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/simonjpaynegotskills/
 
Simon’s Website: https://www.punkincorporated.com/
 
Scott’s Website: https://theinnovatecrowd.com

How Might We Return to Purpose in Talent Development

My guest this episode is Adrian Waite, Adrian is a Strategic HR & Talent Leader, Executive Coach, Consultant, Writer, and Speaker. Currently Head of Talent for Boehringer Ingelheim in META, specializing in “Purpose Driven Performance” through bespoke Talent, OE, OD, Leadership & Management support systems, which produce learning as a by-product of optimal performance experience.    
 
We discuss the role of L&D in delivering ‘Purpose Driven Performance.’ How we should be careful of ‘Best Practice’ and be aware of cultural, people and landscape differences. The need for organisations to embrace experiments and learning from outcomes. Let us focus on the purpose of what we are trying to do, and we touch on principled negotiation.
 
Adrian shares some thoughts on leadership development. Asking questions to get clarity on what the leaders need to be able to do to fit in their space in the organisation. Do we need to extract leaders from the real world for five days to talk about the theory of what is being done in the real world?
 
To be honest, who in your organisation cares about learning outcomes?
 
In the leadership space, we tend to be happy with generic approaches that would not be tolerated in a technical environment. Should we look at leadership development in the same way as technical development, what specific things do your leaders need to be able to do?
 
Adrian explains his principle of developing leaders to perform first and learn through performance. This approach goes against the grain of a lot of leadership development that exists. We need to be working with leaders on the challenges they are facing tomorrow. We can use employees' roles and life cycles to narrow the focus of development.
 
Can we develop an approach that lets leaders drop in and out as they decide? Letting leaders engage when they have the need to do so, rather than one size fits all and waiting for a space to be available.
 
Covid has given us the opportunity to work in a test environment and question what is essential and what adds value. And we can now move to work on the future and what that might look like. That enables L&D to look at how to develop and support people to be effective and efficient within that.
 
Kids ask ‘What is the point of you?’ it is a profound question and we should explore it on a regular basis. If we want the performance, we need the purpose underneath.
 
‘We are in the performance business – that is my point’
 
Do you know the purpose of your role, department, function, or project? Knowing this can help cut out some of the noise and help you prioritise the important stuff. We are often talking about inputs and not the purpose, however, the purpose is what underpins everything.
 
There is a need to provide the support that is linked to operational needs and landscape changes. We need a different mindset, moving away from generic and topic-led solutions. We can learn from other specialists, such as marketing to help make the shift and rethink how we do things.
 
Working in partnership with senior leaders, working towards high purpose outcomes that are critical to the survivability of the organisation you can get a pass on the metrics. Don’t wait to be asked for a seat at the table, go around and get to understand what are the pain points. Work with them to see how you can support them to deliver on their objectives.
 
What metrics are important, it may not be what you expect. Elevating L&D professionals to trusted advisors. It is not about proposing programmes, but supporting and helping, that approach can quickly elevate your role within the organisation.
 
‘You may not get to play with everybody with the current plan, but you’re a lot more likely to get to play in the future plans because there is no threat in that.’
 
Be selfless, L&D serves to enable others to achieve their goals, we are there to help performance to be achieved. The role you played will become evident and your reputation will grow, there is no need to bang your own drum.
 
If you can – choose your boss.
 
 
Adrian’s LinkedIn  https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-adrian-waite-chartered-fcipd-flpi-69227aa/
 
Scott’s website: https://www.theinnovatecrowd.com
 
If you have ideas, thoughts, and insights around purpose, business and development then please email me to discuss being a guest on a future episode of ‘How Might We…? scott@theinnovatecrowd.com

How Might We Make L&D More Attractive

In this episode my guest is John Hinchcliffe; John is an internationally recognised award-winning digital learning expert with over 12 years in the field. He is Head of Talent at Jam Pan, The #1 On-Demand Digital Learning Marketplace, which connects the right expert freelancers and agencies with your digital learning needs. He also is the founder of the Global Learning and Development Community and was shortlisted for Covid Champion at the LPI Learning Awards 2021 in recognition of his efforts to helping others in the industry during Covid.
 
We discuss the bad rep L&D has had for a long time, especially in the digital learning space. However, a lot of this was well deserved. John talks about his journey and how discovered how not to design. We then discuss how it can and has evolved and can continue to do so.
 
We touch on creating agile organisations, solving actual problems, and adaptive learning. What can L&D also learn from other disciplines to create better solutions that deliver?
 
03:12 Learning was never a passion to be an active experience – Learning has been a reactive thing for people
05:19 No-one was asking what was wrong
07:02 Attractive can mean so many things – results are attractive
08:31 What is the solution? Well, what is the problem?
10:03 The shift from defined roles to transferable skills – thinking about project/GIG based work
10:47 Working with what strengths/interests’ people already have – helping create agility
12:34 Adaptive learning in the workplace
14:08 L&D moving from the owner of learning to the curator of learning
15:10 Using data on platforms to gain insights
16:36 Using data analysis and marketing to improve L&D
20:46 Measuring and answering the ROI question
22:20 Answering the what’s in it for me question
25:22 Best principles, not best practices
27:43 Because it has become the norm
33:53 Why are we looking at one-off solutions?
35:12 Internal L&D CRM System
40:53 Onboarding and stress
43:29 L&D and creativity
45:53 L&D and customer experience
46:41 5 questions to ask in any design
49:35 We have gone full circle – time for a bit of a recap
 
 
The Global Learning and Development Network: GLDC https://www.mygldc.org
 
John’s LinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-hinchliffe-yourskillshub/
 
Jam Pan: https://www.jam-pan.com
 
Scott’s Website: https://www.theinnovatecrowd.com
 
If you have stories, insights, and thoughts you would like to share, and be a guest on the podcast; drop me an email at scott@theinnovatecrowd.com to arrange a chat.

How Might We Change behaviour

In this episode, my guest is Paul Matthews. 20 years after moving into L&D, Paul is a sought-after speaker on the international stage – not only for his undoubted knowledge but also for his engaging, story-led approach and his desire to make L&D ideas easy to understand. He also runs workshops and does consultancy for many blue-chip clients in the UK and beyond. He’s a regular speaker in L&D events in the UK and around the world, as well as writing for leading industry magazines and blogs. He is also a member of the CIPD’s L&D advisory board.
 
Paul and I talk about the importance of thinking about delivering behavioural change. And how this can be the golden thread through design that makes measurement of output easier. Paul talks about the levers to pull for learning transfer to happen and how we can design a learning workflow that creates the behavioural changes required.
 
01:07 The function of L&D is changing behaviour to ensure we get the performance we need
03:07 Taking our eye off the prize
04:43 It’s not learning needs analysis – it’s a behavioural needs analysis
06:07 And now we have a reasonable way of measuring
07:22 Generic leadership content – there needs to be a customised layer
08:37 Learning transfer is the key to behavioural change
10:31 Accountability and responsibility
12:18 The 12 levers of learning transfer
13:56 Performance consultancy
16:13 How do I deliver these behaviours to people
17:15 Does one-day training actually need three or four days?
20:13 Does learning happen without reflection?
20:49 The five layers of reflection
23:49 Let’s get the basics right
25:06b Workflow and behavioural change
32:29 Training and coaching is good, but what else can we do?
32:51 Governance, accountability and responsibility
36:11 The perception of L&D
41:58 Do leaders feel that L&D think too short term and transactional
 
 
Paul’s Website: https://paul-matthews.com/
 
Paul’s Workflow platform: https://peoplealchemy.com/
 
Scott’s Website: https://www.theinnovatecrowd.com/
 
If you have ideas, thoughts or insights that can help change the perception of learning. Please drop me an email to chat about being a guest on the podcast scott@theinnovatecrowd.com

How Might We Not Waste Money on Training

In this episode, my guest is Krystyna Gadd.
 
Krystyna Gadd has been in the field of learning and development for over 30 years. She is a consummate professional with a passion for helping people perform better through learning. She is a member of the CIPD and has delivered professional CIPD L&D qualifications. She is also a fellow of the Learning and Performance Institute. She is also the author of 'How not to Waste Your Money on Training' - a practical and graphic 'how-to' guide with useful activities to complete. 
A move into soft skills training in 2003 led Krystyna to research accelerated learning. She was particularly drawn to how learning could become more engaging as well as impactful. A frustration with the many models and theories within accelerated learning prompted her to create a signature system ‘Five Secrets of Accelerated Learning’, which simplifies all relevant theories and models for those curious about accelerating learning through their organisations.
 
Krystyna’s focus is always on achieving business results in a creative and inspiring way. Through Five Secrets, she helps people make this structured and simple. A curious mind drives her to seek new innovations and consider how the latest research can be applied. She is a pragmatist with a thirst for learning and sharing with others, with the ultimate aim to elevate the L&D profession. Finding the right data to inform good decision-making is a must in her eyes.
 
Krystyna and I talk about learning aligning training interventions to the organisational needs. We explore some ideas from Krystina’s experience. We identify how this can be an opportunity for L&D to help the organisation to develop strategy and facilitate these discussions.
 
We also cover the importance of analysis and being curious and collaborative to elevate L&D influence within the organisation.
 
02:56 How can we support achieving your goals
04:11 Being curious is vital for L&D
06:28 Krystyna explains the HIRE framework to conduct analysis
07:43 L&D is capable of so much more
09:43 Smiley sheets are great – but we actually had an impact
11:46 Look at training as a journey or process
12:03 The role of data
21:41 It’s a need analysis
23:57 L&D can have a strategic, consultative role
27:24 Broaden our area of looking at something
33:39 L&D will need to justify training – COVID was a catalyst
39:08 Can the line manager help?
41:15 Back to culture and curiosity
47:32 Influence and collaboration
50:46 How many ways can you learn?
57:59 Tips on writing clear objectives
 
Krystyna’s Website www.howtoacceleratelearning.co.uk
Scott’ Website https://www.theinnovatecrowd.com
 
If you have any thoughts, insights, and ideas about changing the perception of learning. Then ping me an email to discuss being a guest at scott@theinnovatecrowd.com
 

How Might We Leverage Micro-Learning for Better Results

In this episode my guest is Kate Udilova, Kate is marketer turned L&D expert, business owner, and microlearning addict. Founder, CPO at 7taps.com
We discuss what is micro-learning and how it is everywhere. It is not a fad it is as old as the hills. We look at the application of micro-learning in the world of work and cooking etc and how it can be effective in delivering just-in-time solutions
Kate talks about the science and thinking behind the development of her micro-learning platform 7taps and how reducing barriers to learning was a big driver in the thinking behind it.
 
03:53 Kate sheds some light on the role of technology, has it changed the way we learn or is it somehow connected to micro-learning
06:53 Micro-learning and working memory capacity
08:45 How it can enhance every learning in moving knowledge to long term memory
11:23 It is not the one size fits all solutions – there are four key areas where it can benefit
13:09 Start with the desired business outcomes
14:39 Good learning is a blend of approaches
16:15 Removing the barriers and providing smoothest experience
21:32 The power of stories in learning
24:08 L&D and fads
25:09 Creating content in a way that people consume information voluntarily
31:30 Distilling it to the essence
34:18 Micro-learning is not the silver bullet
38:05 If it is the correct method, the choices are endless
 
Kate’s Website: https://www.7taps.com/
 
Connect with Kate on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/udalova/
 
Scott’ Website : https://www.theinnovatecrowd.com
 
If you have thoughts, ideas or insights that can help transform the perception of learning and would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch to have a chat. scott@theinnovatecrowd.com